[meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites
From: Michael Blood <mlblood_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:43:28 2004 Message-ID: <3B3E80F0.7ED0_at_home.com> Hi Rob, You can see why my ORIGINAL comments were, LET'S NOT GET = INTO THIS - exactly as you say - name calling, blaming, etc. = I REALLY hope you did not take my comments as directed at you - they were at the attitudes many on the list have expressed - and I, undoubtedly, have SOME bias, as well - though not nearly to the degree those who make their living ON the NWA market do.... = I was relieved to read your response - and the level headedness it = reflected - and you security & self esteme is reflected, as well, in your = not compulsively "defending" yourself. = I tip my hat to you, sir. Best wishes, Michael -- Rob and Colleen wrote: > = > Thank you all for your replies on and off list. > = > Michael Blood is right, it is a no win situation to comment on. > = > There is no objectivity to be offered by anyone on this matter. History= will > be recorded, the future will be impacted, and we all have an opinion as= to > what will happen or how. I just wanted to throw a whammy at the stale > arguments between the warring factions. All very subjective in their op= inions > of who is doing right by whom. My post, subjective as well. Some intere= sting > points have been brought up, some ways of thinking changed by some memb= ers. > And maybe a pause in the senseless, repetetive arguing between dealers.= Many > say "Oh this is all good fun and when you see these guys together every= thing > is hugs and kisses." But to those that don't see these guys together it= > leaves a sour taste, again my subjective opinion. My points have been > addressed as best I predict they will be and some of my opinions have > changed. Barring a full blown attack, I will jump out as quickly as I j= umped > in and say thanks one more time. Thanks, > Rob Wesel > = > Michael Blood wrote: > = > > Hi Bob & list members, > > I have been sitting on my hands for so long it hurts, keeping= > > OUT of this....seeing it as a "no win" situation for any dealer to > > comment on. However, since I am NOT directly involved (I do > > NOT go to Africa and buy meteorites and bring them back here) > > I thought SOME degree of objectivity might be afforded me. > > As many of you know, diplomacy is not my strongest suite, > > (nore is spelling! - so bare with me, please) so, I have stayed > > in the background as long as I could bare to. > > For those who would like to "skip" what they might consider > > "borring" narative, please skip to the last quote of Rob's & my > > last commentary. I do belive that addresses the HEART of this > > entire "string" of posts. > > Rob, PLEASE do not take the following personally, but I am go= ing > > to use some quotes from your recent post to point out SOME of the > > attitutes of SOME of the meteorite collectors on the list. I see thes= e > > as reflective of an "undertone" of attitudes that do not contribute > > to harmonious relationships and, a factor affecting us all, in that > > they distract from the overall level of SATISFACTION gained in > > collecting meteorites. > > So, again Rob, this is NOT aimed at you and I both apologise = for > > doing so, and thank you for providing some glaring examples of > > ideas, perspectives and attitudes I DO want to address: > > YOU SAY: > > > It's good to hear they got thrown some bones for such a valuable > > > piece. I had forgotten to factor in the labor costs along > > > with the cutting loss and donations. > > Regarding this last sentence - 25 to 35% "loss" in cutting > > (depending on the thickness, this can EASILY go to 50% for > > thin slices &though collectorsis WANT "thin" they do NOT want > > to pay 20% to 50% more $ for "thin") This "cost" of cutting is > > just the tip of the iceburg -there are MANY other factors far more > > "costly"to the dealers than THAT. I will not reiterate some of > > the "costs" incurred by dealers since I HAVE listed here in the past.= > > YOU SAY: > > >Again, the lack of internal representation surprises me. > > >When will we see a savvy businessman heading things up > > >in Morocco, teaching locals to cut, classify and polish? > > The word "ethnocentrism" means "my culture's values > > and ways of doing things is the RIGHT way - other ways > > of other culturs are curious and interesting at best, often > > stupid or even evil at worst." > > NOMADS RIDE AROUND ON CAMELS! They live in TENTS! > > They have done so for many centuries, thank you! "Middle > > men" at Bazars and such have, for centuries, sold what is > > available at what prices they can get. Meteorites are just one > > more commodety in such a context. PERIOD. > > YOU SAY: > > > Outside of shows, the meteorite market (not Twelker:^)) exists > > > mainly in cyberspace. Seems like it would be easy for someone > > > over there to tap into that market. > > "EASY????" Many Americans still don't have a clue about email= ! > > These are countries more often than not without ELECTRICITY! > > (sure, in the larger cities, blah, blah, quack, quack - but GENERALLY= ) > > I don't have a cell phone - you expect somone in Oman or Morocco > > to be both internet savy AND interested in selling meteorites???? > > YOU SAY: > > > I am surprised they were asking market value at the shows in > > > Europe. Obviously they sell to dealers at below market > > > value and could do better at a show selling somewhere > > > between dealer price and market value. > > Do you have any IDEA what the "difference between dealer > > price and market value" IS? > > - sure, on Lunar, SNCs, Howardite, etc. the dealer/consumer > > price CAN BE substantial - but these "rare" specimens are RARE! > > They constitute a TINY percentage of the material involved. The > > "mark up" on well over 95% of the material comming out of > > Africa is MINISCULE. A few cents a gram- and I mean a FEW, not > > 20 or 30, or even 10 - or 5, I mean a FEW. > > So, now that Africans have jumped through hoops of fire to > > get passports, paid exhorbitant fees for air fair and SHIPPING and > > any customs rigamarole and are paying unbelievable prices (relative > > to thier native economy) for everything from food to shelter to > > show fees, you want them to cut the price........ need I elaborate > > further? > > YOU SAY: > > > To truely have long term economic improvement some > > > govermental cooperation and intervention needs to be > > > balanced with the individual gains of the finders. From > > > what has been said about bribes, this would take a complete > > > social overhaul. > > The first part of the above paragraph is both niave AND > > ethnocentric (see above definition) The last sentence ALSO > > involves a total lack of awareness of how things REALLY work > > in the US, itself. > > Bribes? You REALLY don't know how the U.S. RUNS on Bribes? ! > > (I must admit they are usually labeled other than bribes - "campaign > > controbutions" and "donations" to the police retirement funds, > > giving people in positions of power "fees" for "consultation" or > > writing books that never get realeased, or.......ETC. - certainly in > > the NY & Chicago, everyone wholives there knows the police not > > only take bribes on a regular basis from bars, strip joints, etc, > > but a person is a fool not to have a few hundred dollars that will > > get him out of most things other than murder - and certainly > > any traffic citation). It is understood, from restraunt health > > inspectors to fire safety clearance in apartment buildings, etc, > > etc, etc. (Many who DON'T know this are heads of failed > > small businesses - because most "officials" will certainly never > > use the word "bribe" and you will hear countless "businessmen" > > who attempted to start a business complain of how everything > > is now over regulated to the point it is impossible to have a small > > business. You think successful small businesses "magically" over > > came the same obsticles? > > That does not begin to address BIG business. How do you > > think the tobacco companies have managed to stay in business > > the last 30 years when every member of congress has known of > > the totally poisonous efects of tobacco? How do you think the > > major oil companies can destroy an entire ecosystem in Alaska > > and STILL not have paid $1 to one single company out of the > > countless fishing businesses who "won" law suits > > against them in court? > > I could go on the length of a BOOK just LISTING areas that > > involve bribes and "political" manueverings - from the local to > > the state to the fedral to the executive level. > > That is not what this list is for, so, I will simply say that= any > > adult over 30 years of age in the US who still separates the > > terms Government, Big Business & Organized Crime is so out > > of touch with reality as to deserve a "bless their hearts" nod > > from those who have been awake through the process of > > growing up to know they differ only slightly - primarily in > > "style," terminology and function. The line is particularly thin > > between Big Business & Organized Crime - whereas, in politics > > the terminology differences create a slight illusion of greater > > separation. > > YOU SAY: > > >Much to understand with these nomads, we need one on > > >the list. > > I am sure one will just hop right off his camel, spend years > > getting a formal education (WHERE I do not know) learning English > > and computer skills, somehow find the $ for the cost of all this, > > buy a computer & hook right up to the internet (I am sure it is a > > breeze over there - much easier than in a back water town in > > Idaho) and have a little chat with us. > > Yes, that would be convenient - for us. > > YOU SAY: > > > To sum up, I don't see the dealers as the saviors of the Sahara, > > > which is not far from some of the latest arguments. > > > Same goes for the hunters. > > Clearly you miss the "flavor" of the "argument" wherein > > each "side" is pointing fingers and calling names - nothing more, > > nothing less. > > YOU SAY > > > To do this (be the "saviors of the Sahara")would require > > > teaching them to better help themselves, beyond the act of > > > collecting. > > This comment is tranparently ethnocentric. Sounds like > > something an 18th or 19th century British aristocrat would say. > > The entire concept of a "3rd world" is ethnocentric - we > > (the "modern world") contaminate their economic systems, > > then "see" the "answer" FOR THEM is to become MORE LIKE US! > > Just change eons of tradition, ways, language, kinship practices, > > values, religion, economic practices - just become more "like us." > > Yup, that's the ticket! > > --------------------- > > AND FINALLY YOU SAY: > > > Seems to be the case in most third world ventures > > > "10% of the purchase of this macadamia nut crunch bar > > > goes to support tropical reforesation" The other 90% into > > > production, packaging, distribution, and the guy whose idea > > > it was. Finders Keepers, also a tricky subject. > > NOW we get to the real heart of the matter! The issue that > > caused this to become of interest to this list! > > You see, the person "who's idea it was" - involved A FEW > > individuals, mostly, if not exclusively from France. Meteorites > > were ORIGINALLY, for several YEARS, purchased over there > > for UNDER 5c PER GRAM! They were then carefully analized > > and selectively submitted to be oficially analysed, typed and > > registered - then marketed to the collecting public - in most > > cases well UNDER "market prices" for such material - all by > > a few dealers from France. SOME of these dealers also DID DO > > FIELD SEARCH for meteorites in Africa - at great cost, both > > financially and in terms of risk of human life - Alaine and > > Louis Carion, particularly, brought new life to Libyan Desert > > Glass and found many meteorites, themselves. (they were > > not the only ones). For the most part, however, the French, > > for several years, had an "exclusive" and ALL material was > > either overtly stated to be found by them or implied to have > > been found by them - and, even though their prices were far > > below "traditional" prices for such rare material (Howardites, > > Eucrites, Lunites, etc.) they were ASTRONOMICALLY higher > > than the pennies per gram being paid for them. (It must also > > be noted that they were buying EVERYTHING meteoritic - so, > > there was much that was very common, broken, highly > > weathered, etc. that never ever came to market at all. It is still > > being held - it most certainly was not thrown away! It did, > > however, contribute to their "overhead" - but most certainly > > not to the level that it "cost" them anywhere remotely close > > to hundreds of dollars per gram for a nice Howardite or > > R Chondrite or the like. > > NOW, here come these stinking Americans! They start > > buying meteorites like mad - and start paying MORE for the > > better materials, starting with anything that has reasonably > > fresh fusion crust, then achondritic material, etc. and in a > > matter of a year or so the "market" in Africa has changed > > DRAMATICALLY! > > So, there, in the above few parigraphs, you have the > > REAL heart of the issue! > > Again, Rob, this was NOT "aimed at" you! These are things > > I have heard MANY on this list say - you just happened to put > > a bunch of the all togeather. PLEASE forgive me for making > > ANY of what I said sound as though it were directed at you, > > personally. I do appologize for whatever degree I made it > > "sound" that way - it is not. > > Sorry, I just could NOT sit on my hands any longer. > > Best wishes, Michael > > > > > > > > -- > > =93Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were > > a member of Congress...But I repeat myself.=94 > > - Mark Twain > > -- > > 1) "Hunger Site" Donates 3/4 cup of rice EACH DAY you visit & click > > http://www.thehungersite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/HungerSite > > -- > > 2) "Rainforest Site" Donates 14.4sqare feet EACH DAY you visit & clic= k > > http://www.therainforestsite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/RainforestSite > > -- > > 3) "The Breast Cancer Site" Donates free mamograms to empoverished > > women (click daily): http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/ > > -- > > Michael Blood Meteorites for sale at: > > http://www.meteorite.com/Michael_Blood/catalog.htm -- =93Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were = a member of Congress...But I repeat myself.=94 - Mark Twain -- 1) "Hunger Site" Donates 3/4 cup of rice EACH DAY you visit & click = http://www.thehungersite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/HungerSite -- 2) "Rainforest Site" Donates 14.4sqare feet EACH DAY you visit & click http://www.therainforestsite.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/RainforestSite -- 3) "The Breast Cancer Site" Donates free mamograms to empoverished women (click daily): http://www.thebreastcancersite.com/ -- Michael Blood Meteorites for sale at: http://www.meteorite.com/Michael_Blood/catalog.htmReceived on Sat 30 Jun 2001 09:46:24 PM PDT |
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