[meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites

From: Mark Miconi <mam602_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:15 2004
Message-ID: <004401c10121$f3d29fa0$04f20541_at_fwlr1.az.home.com>

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Just read about DeBeers in Africa and how much damage and pollution they =
create on earth each year. And about the human destruction, the ghettos =
that form where the workers are housed, how little the workers are paid.

Seems that meteorites are less destructive to the native humans in the =
area and do not require the destruction of the environment to find.

Mark
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Mike Farmer=20
  To: Rob and Colleen=20
  Cc: Jim Strope ; meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20
  Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites


  Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want you all to know, =
that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions to our =
suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over $10,000 =
more. Yes the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the Moroccans, =
the money we sent was a gift. They see business as completed when the =
deal is done, when we pay high prices and get a bad meteorite, we lose, =
when we get a good one, we win. Our people are extremely happy. No they =
are not making as much money as us, but when you look at profit margins, =
I think they are getting the best deal. Many years salery every couple =
of months for little work. When they sell them to us, they are finished, =
 money in hand,.our work however, has just begun. I can tell you from 8 =
trips to the Sahara, when we buy there, by the time all expenses are =
paid and works is done, the price we have into the meteorites has =
doubled!=20
  It is hard work, and I invite anyone who doubts that to come work for =
me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with the large amount of =
meteorites that I have brought home.=20
  The people in North Africa do know the values, many of them were in =
Europe trying to sell meteorites at market value. They also failed, as =
they dont know everything they need to know about the business. I assume =
it is why a fruit grower wholesales his produce out to mass buyers, it =
is simple, they get paid a lump sum, and their work is done, imagine if =
every fruit grower sold his own items. They would all go bankrupt very =
quickly. You need a business person, someone who knows the people and =
the market, who can reach the buyers. The Moroccans know this and dont =
waste their time trying to sell individual pieces. They want to move =
large volumes of material. I think they are smart in doing business this =
way.=20
      I know the DeBeers diamond mines use large crushers to smash the =
rock to get the diamonds. The machines are set up for maximum =
efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste their time =
looking for the large diamons that certianly come out sometimes, all =
rock goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds are destroyed as =
ther are so few that they would lose time and money looking for them. It =
is sad, but much more efficient to destroy them and get more small ones. =

  It is the same with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare =
ones. Tehy are willing to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of =
material. In the end it is more efficent and profitable for them.=20
  There is no set price for different meteorites, the rare ones, usually =
achondrites, are more expensive, but it takes ahrd barganing and when =
the Moroccans reach a price where they are happy, they sell. Each piece =
is different, they also buy them after all.=20
  Does this make sense?=20
  Mike Farmer=20
  Rob and Colleen wrote:=20

     =20
    Jim Strope wrote:=20

      ...This grading of material and offering higher prices is what is =
disturbing=20
      some of the earlier buyers who bought rare material for pennies =
per gram and=20
      tried to sell it to you for 100s of dollars per gram. This is =
what is=20
      making them mad. The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone =
up=20
      considerably, even the common stuff.
    -This really doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price =
to up along with demand and certainly if the nomads knew the true value =
of the material in today's collector market.=20
       =20
      When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per =
gram was so=20
      high that we were chastised by some European dealers for paying so =
much in=20
      the field. We did not know it was Lunar at the time. We guessed =
it was a=20
      Howardite or possibly a Eucrite. If it had turned out to be a =
Eucrite we=20
      would have been lucky to just get our money back. We took a =
chance. NWA=20
      482 had been offered to French and German dealers before us but =
they=20
      declined to pay the price. I guess in retrospect they are kicking =

      themselves for that decision. Would you believe that even after=20
      classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike was =
scolded=20
      again in Paris because we paid too much and were driving up the =
prices.?

      -Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 before the cutting loss =
and scientific donation had an estimated value of 4-4.5 million dollars =
based on the opening offers to the public. A gamble yes, as it could =
have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite valuable. To be =
chastised for approximating the true worth of the material speaks =
volumes for the one chastising.
      Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare material in Morocco or any =
other=20
      country for rare material.
     -What is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron?=20
     -What are they asking=20
    The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a =
collector who buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and =
sells a little on eBay to recoup on the price of the piece I want, far =
from profit other than cheaper meteorites in the long run. The business =
of collecting.=20

    The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's land =
rights is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are =
stealing from the mouths of the nomads. They argue that they are =
contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on this point I =
agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when ultra =
valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further =
compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent on =
the next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these answers. Human =
nature, however, is leaning me toward the belief that the nomads are =
getting the short end. While they are making money, and more than their =
collective ancestors ever did, I doubt they are getting even close to =
the value of the material they are out walking in some the the harshest =
conditions on the planet to collect and drag to some market. Now I am =
fully aware that such is the case in any business. The laborers don't =
get paid the same as the man at the desk. The migrant worker who picks =
berries makes more than his parents ever did but he will never be able =
to go into business for himself. Agreed. But the level of argument in =
this scenario has escalated to the point that those who argue for the =
people are a bit misguided in my book. The nomads are stymied by the =
fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a certain level and the =
hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab what they want and =
pay the government instead of the people. For reasons I can not =
understand, the nomads have no internal representation to the outside =
world, certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet they have the =
richest free market supply in the world. Maybe they are happy to get =
what they they get, but they are sitting on a gold mine.=20

    Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of =
this science will pay attention to this time, and names will be =
remembered. Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this.=20

    On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some =
mistakes have already been made and will never be resolved. Others =
haven't happened yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters and =
nomads) need to evaluate which side of this sword they are on and how =
they want to be remembered, not what the other guy is doing. History =
will worry about the other guy. Collectors will pay what they decide to =
pay regardless of the collection practices of the dealer and will =
certainly be remembered as a collective.=20

    To the chastiser, had to make up a word, mentioned way earlier in =
this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath, and =
hold it.=20

    The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about =
yourself and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a cheap =
meteorite more than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara when we put a =
new piece on our shelf?=20

    My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts. =
Feel free to set me straight.=20
    Rob Wesel=20
     =20

      Jim Strope=20
      421 Fourth Street=20
      Glen Dale, WV 26038=20
      THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD:=20
      http://www.nwa482.com=20

      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: "Bob King" <lakewind_at_infi.net>=20
      To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>=20
      Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 8:38 PM=20
      Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites=20

> Hello everyone,=20
> With the current thread about the so-called plundering of desert =

> meteorites underway, I was curious how much the Moroccan=20
> nomads are typically offered for their hauls of common weathered =

> chondrites. What do these finders usually ask and what is a =
typical=20
> per gram price they are offered by American and French dealers?=20
> Thanks!=20
> Bob=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________=20
> Meteorite-list mailing list=20
> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list=20
>=20

      _______________________________________________=20
      Meteorite-list mailing list=20
      Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20
      http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list


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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just read about DeBeers in Africa and =
how much=20
damage and pollution they create on earth each year. And about the human =

destruction, the ghettos that form where the workers are housed, how =
little the=20
workers are paid.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Seems that meteorites are less =
destructive to=20
the&nbsp;native humans in the area and do not require the destruction of =
the=20
environment to find.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:farmerm_at_concentric.net" =
title=3Dfarmerm_at_concentric.net>Mike=20
  Farmer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
href=3D"mailto:iguana_at_pcez.com"=20
  title=3Diguana_at_pcez.com>Rob and Colleen</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:jim_at_catchafallingstar.com" =
title=3Djim_at_catchafallingstar.com>Jim=20
  Strope</A> ; <A href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com"=20
  =
title=3Dmeteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>meteorite-list@meteoritecentr=
al.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, June 29, 2001 =
9:31 PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [meteorite-list] =
Cost of=20
  Moroccan meteorites</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>Interesting point, As a buyer of NWA 482, I just want =
you all=20
  to know, that after the meteorite was confirmed, we sent commissions =
to our=20
  suppliers and workers over there, many thousands, as in over $10,000 =
more. Yes=20
  the meteorite has a value of millions, but to the Moroccans, the money =
we sent=20
  was a gift. They see business as completed when the deal is done, when =
we pay=20
  high prices and get a bad meteorite, we lose, when we get a good one, =
we win.=20
  Our people are extremely happy. No they are not making as much money =
as us,=20
  but when you look at profit margins, I think they are getting the best =
deal.=20
  Many years salery every couple of months for little work. When they =
sell them=20
  to us, they are finished,&nbsp; money in hand,.our work however, has =
just=20
  begun.&nbsp; I can tell you from 8 trips to the Sahara, when we buy =
there, by=20
  the time all expenses are paid and works is done, the price we have =
into the=20
  meteorites has doubled! <BR>It is hard work, and I invite anyone who =
doubts=20
  that to come work for me cutting, polishing, sorting and dealing with =
the=20
  large amount of meteorites that I have brought home. <BR>The people in =
North=20
  Africa do know the values, many of them were in Europe trying to sell=20
  meteorites at market value. They also failed, as they dont know =
everything=20
  they need to know about the business. I assume it is why a fruit =
grower=20
  wholesales his produce out to mass buyers, it is simple, they get paid =
a lump=20
  sum, and their work is done, imagine if every fruit grower sold his =
own items.=20
  They would all go bankrupt very quickly. You need a business person, =
someone=20
  who knows the people and the market, who can reach the buyers. The =
Moroccans=20
  know this and dont waste their time trying to sell individual pieces. =
They=20
  want to move large volumes of material. I think they are smart in =
doing=20
  business this way. <BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I know the DeBeers diamond =
mines use=20
  large crushers to smash the rock to get the diamonds. The machines are =
set up=20
  for maximum efficiency. Unfortunately that means that they can't waste =
their=20
  time looking for the large diamons that certianly come out sometimes, =
all rock=20
  goes into the crushers, and any large diamonds are destroyed as ther =
are so=20
  few that they would lose time and money looking for them. It is sad, =
but much=20
  more efficient to destroy them and get more small ones. <BR>It is the =
same=20
  with the meteorites, there are many but very few rare ones. Tehy are =
willing=20
  to let them slip by to sale maximum amount of material. In the end it =
is more=20
  efficent and profitable for them. <BR>There is no set price for =
different=20
  meteorites, the rare ones, usually achondrites, are more expensive, =
but it=20
  takes ahrd barganing and when the Moroccans reach a price where they =
are=20
  happy, they sell. Each piece is different, they also buy them after =
all.=20
  <BR>Does this make sense? <BR>Mike Farmer=20
  <P>Rob and Colleen wrote:=20
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">&nbsp;=20
    <P>Jim Strope wrote:=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">...This grading of material and offering =
higher=20
      prices is what is disturbing <BR>some of the earlier buyers who =
bought=20
      rare material for pennies per gram and <BR>tried to sell it to you =
for=20
      100s of dollars per gram.&nbsp; This is what&nbsp; is <BR>making =
them=20
      mad.&nbsp; The prices of all Moroccan meteorites have gone up=20
      <BR>considerably,&nbsp; even the common stuff.</BLOCKQUOTE>-This =
really=20
    doesn't answer the question. I would expect the price to up along =
with=20
    demand and certainly if the&nbsp; nomads knew the true value of the =
material=20
    in today's collector market.=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">&nbsp;=20
      <P>When Mike Farmer and I bought NWA 482 in January, the price per =
gram=20
      was so <BR>high that we were chastised by some European dealers =
for paying=20
      so much in <BR>the field.&nbsp; We did not know it was Lunar at =
the=20
      time.&nbsp; We guessed it was a <BR>Howardite or possibly a =
Eucrite.&nbsp;=20
      If it had turned out to be a Eucrite we <BR>would have been lucky =
to just=20
      get our money back.&nbsp; We took a chance.&nbsp; NWA <BR>482 had =
been=20
      offered to French and German dealers before us but they =
<BR>declined to=20
      pay the price.&nbsp; I guess in retrospect they are kicking =
<BR>themselves=20
      for that decision.&nbsp; Would you believe that even after=20
      <BR>classification and verification that it was Lunar that Mike =
was=20
      scolded <BR>again in Paris because we paid too much and were =
driving up=20
      the prices.?</P></BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">-Simple math. The way I see it, NWA 482 =
before the=20
      cutting loss and scientific donation had an estimated value of =
4-4.5=20
      million dollars based on the opening offers to the public. A =
gamble yes,=20
      as it could have been a Eucrite worth much less, but still quite =
valuable.=20
      To be chastised for approximating the true worth of the material =
speaks=20
      volumes for the one chastising.</BLOCKQUOTE>
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">Hell, I will pay a fair price for rare =
material in=20
      Morocco or any other <BR>country for rare =
material.</BLOCKQUOTE>&nbsp;-What=20
    is fair for a suspected OC, HED, an iron? <BR>&nbsp;-What are they =
asking=20
    <P>The recent thread has been intriguing from my standpoint, a =
collector who=20
    buys a little extra from the dealers on this list and sells a little =
on eBay=20
    to recoup on the price of the piece I want, far from profit other =
than=20
    cheaper meteorites in the long run. The business of collecting.=20
    <P>The argument of the faction in support of indigenous people's =
land rights=20
    is that those who obtain permits and hunt for themselves are =
stealing from=20
    the mouths of the nomads. They argue that&nbsp; =
<B><U>they</U></B>&nbsp;=20
    are&nbsp; contributing to the livelihood of these nomads, and on =
this point=20
    I agree. The nomads are getting paid. But what does happen when =
ultra=20
    valuable material is brought back to the US, are the nomads further=20
    compensated or does the money go to a consortium of investors bent =
on the=20
    next venture. Again, I am asking, I do not know these answers. Human =
nature,=20
    however,&nbsp; is leaning me toward the belief that the nomads are =
getting=20
    the short end. While they are making money, and more than their =
collective=20
    ancestors ever did, I doubt they are getting even close to the value =
of the=20
    material they are out walking in some the the harshest conditions on =
the=20
    planet to collect and drag to some market. Now I am fully aware that =
such is=20
    the case in any business. The laborers don't get paid the same as =
the man at=20
    the desk. The migrant worker who picks berries makes more than his =
parents=20
    ever did but he will never be able to go into business for himself. =
Agreed.=20
    But the level of argument in this scenario has escalated to the =
point that=20
    those who argue for the people are a bit misguided in my book. The =
nomads=20
    are stymied by the fact that capitation among dealers only reaches a =
certain=20
    level and the hunters, at least they are doing the work, just grab =
what they=20
    want and pay the government instead of the people. For reasons I can =
not=20
    understand, the nomads have no internal representation to the =
outside world,=20
    certainly no world famous meteorite gurus, yet they have the richest =
free=20
    market supply in the world. Maybe they are happy to get what they =
they get,=20
    but they are sitting on a gold mine.=20
    <P>Eventually the Sahara supply will start to dry up, the history of =
this=20
    science will pay attention to this time, and names will be =
remembered.=20
    Nininger, Monnig, Dupont, believe me when I say this.=20
    <P>On many levels, Sahara meteorites are a double edged sword. Some =
mistakes=20
    have already been made and will never be resolved. Others haven't =
happened=20
    yet. The folks in the field (buyers and hunters and nomads) need to =
evaluate=20
    which side of this sword they are on and how they want to be =
remembered, not=20
    what the other guy is doing. History will worry about the other guy. =

    Collectors will pay what they decide to pay regardless of the =
collection=20
    practices of the dealer and will certainly be remembered as a =
collective.=20
    <P>To the chastiser, had to make up a word,&nbsp; mentioned way =
earlier in=20
    this rant of mine, you really need to sit down and take a breath, =
and hold=20
    it.=20
    <P>The rest of the groups in the field, be excellent. Worry about =
yourself=20
    and the rest will take care of itself. No one likes a cheap =
meteorite more=20
    than me, but what is the cost to the Sahara when we put a new piece =
on our=20
    shelf?=20
    <P>My two cents, even though no one offered a penny for my thoughts. =
Feel=20
    free to set me straight. <BR>Rob Wesel <BR>&nbsp;=20
    <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">Jim Strope <BR>421 Fourth Street <BR>Glen =
Dale,=20
      WV&nbsp; 26038=20
      <P>THE FRESHEST AND ONLY ORIENTED LUNAR METEORITE IN THE WORLD: =
<BR><A=20
      href=3D"http://www.nwa482.com">http://www.nwa482.com</A>=20
      <P>----- Original Message ----- <BR>From: "Bob King"=20
      &lt;lakewind_at_infi.net&gt; <BR>To:=20
      &lt;meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com&gt; <BR>Sent: Friday, June =
29,=20
      2001 8:38 PM <BR>Subject: [meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan =
meteorites=20
      <P>&gt; Hello everyone, <BR>&gt; With the current thread about the =

      so-called plundering of desert <BR>&gt; meteorites underway, I was =
curious=20
      how much the Moroccan <BR>&gt; nomads are typically offered for =
their=20
      hauls of common weathered <BR>&gt; chondrites. What do these =
finders=20
      usually ask and what is a typical <BR>&gt; per gram price they are =
offered=20
      by American and French dealers? <BR>&gt; Thanks! <BR>&gt; Bob =
<BR>&gt;=20
      <BR>&gt; _______________________________________________ <BR>&gt;=20
      Meteorite-list mailing list <BR>&gt; =
Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20
      <BR>&gt; <A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://w=
ww.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A>=20
      <BR>&gt;=20
      <P>_______________________________________________ =
<BR>Meteorite-list=20
      mailing list <BR>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com <BR><A=20
      =
href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://w=
ww.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLO=
CKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C100E7.47290300--
Received on Sat 30 Jun 2001 01:03:07 AM PDT


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