[meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo impact - 17 February, 2325 BCE?

From: E.P. Grondine <epgrondine_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:50:30 2004
Message-ID: <20020427222311.90353.qmail_at_web11604.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi Charlie -

As I pointed out in my initial reply to Marco, there
are no immigrations into the Zoque and Mayan homelands
between 2360 BCE and the later periods. So Marco's
feeble attack on my competence by raising
cultural/ethnicity differences only serves to
demonstrate his complete incompentence in this area.
I assume Marco has some competence with paleolithic
cultures somewhere, but his familiarity with the
specifics of Mayan or Zoque is nil.

I am glad you are enjoying the materials which I have
collected on these catastrophic events.

best wishes -
ep


--- Charlie Devine <moonrock25_at_webtv.net> wrote:
> Dear Mr. Grondine,
>
> As Marco correctly pointed out, your timeline for
> the existance of the
> cultures we call Mayan and Olmec was completely out
> of whack. I found
> nothing whatsoever racist in his comments, merely
> the tongue-in-cheek
> comments of someone astounded by
> your erroneous chronology.
> BTW, I took your advise to Marco and went to the
> link containing your
> report, which you included in your original post on
> this topic.
> I found it to contain much food for thought
>
> Best wishes,
> Charlie
>
>

> ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822
> From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> impact - 17 February, 2325
> BCE?
> To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 12:07:21 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Hello Art and all -
>
> On the topic of list rules, once again, Crutchfield,
> Marco's insulting message was quite public and I can
> not simply allow it to go publicly unanswered.
>
> You may be blind to this, but I doubt if others here
> are. I am also fairly certain that Marco's
> meso-american colleagues upstairs would not be blind
> to it either.
>
> Both the Rio Cuarto and Campo de Cielo impacts are
> fairly serious matters. I can understand
> scepticism,
> but Marcos' lengthy message went well beyond that -
> he
> could have raised his points in 3 sentences without
> wasting so much band width, and I would have
> responded
> to those points with a concise statement of fact.
> Instead Marco resorted to an ad hominem attack ex
> cathedra, and I pointed out that he was acting like
> a
> racist, and the only throne he was sitting on in
> this
> specific matter was a toilet.
>
> I understand that sometimes posts are made without
> sufficient consideration. Should Marco ever wish to
> publicly apologize for his mis-characterization of
> Native American peoples, and the belittling tone he
> took with me in his post, I will accept his apology.
>
> Time constraints are going to cause me to suspend
> from
> this list again shortly for a while, so if Marco
> wants
> to make that public apology, he should do it
> quickly.
>
> I definitely want to avoid adding more messages on
> this to the list, as they contribute nothing to an
> honest discussion of exactly when either the Rio
> Cuarto impact or Campo de Cielo impact occured.
> It's
> a waste of bandwidth, as was much of Marco's
> original
> message.
>
> ep
>
> --- Alex Crutchfield <alexc_at_oasispartners.com>
> wrote:
> > Grondine, you violated list rules and you owe the
> > list an apology. You can
> > accept responsibility for that or not.
> > ARC
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 11:15 AM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> > impact - 17 February, 2325
> > BCE?
> >
> >
> > Hello Alex -
> >
> > As Marco's very racist belittling of the Native
> > American peoples was not done privately, I don't
> see
> > why I should simply sit and grin and take it. It
> is
> > an insult not only to the Maya and Zoque, it is an
> > insult to my own Huron and Monocan ancestors.
> >
> > Additionally, by sharing with this list his
> complete
> > ignorance of these peoples' cultures, Marco left
> the
> > members of the list with an entirely inaccruate
> > conception of them at the time of both the Rio
> > Cuarto
> > and Campo de Cielo impacts.
> >
> > If and when Marco should ever choose to apologise
> > for
> > the belittling tone he took in his message, I will
> > accept his apology.
> >
> > ep
> >
> > PS - By the way, Brenham was widely traded in
> North
> > America long before Europeans ever showed up.
> >
> >
> > --- Alex Crutchfield <alexc_at_oasispartners.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Grondine, You are out of line to post this rank
> > > insult on the open meteorite
> > > list, as it violates list rules and common
> > decency.
> > > You should have replied
> > > privately. Now you should apologise publicly.
> > > Alexander Crutchfield
> > > IMCA #5361
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine_at_yahoo.com>
> > > To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 2:47 AM
> > > Subject: [meteorite-list] re: Campo de Cielo
> > impact
> > > - 17 February, 2325 BCE?
> > >
> > >
> > > uhhh, Marco,
> > >
> > > Perhaps you want to play endless games about
> > > cultural
> > > artifacts and ethnicity, but I don't really have
> > > time
> > > for them here. I will note in passing that there
> > are
> > > no migrations into the Maya and Zoque homelands
> > > between 2360 BCE (Rio Cuarto) and the later
> > periods.
> > > If you have any information different, then
> please
> > > share it with us all.
> > >
> > > But this is really aside the point. Rio Cuarto
> > has
> > > a
> > > 350 MEGATON hole in the ground, and wherever the
> > > Zoque
> > > (Olmec) and Maya ancestors were in this
> HEMISPHERE
> > > they felt its effects.
> > >
> > > Since as you admit the Maya and Zoque are not
> your
> > > fields of expertise, may I suggest that before
> you
> > > start telling everyone about those "primitve"
> > Native
> > > Americans, and stating with such authority that
> of
> > > course they didn't have an advanced culture, sea
> > > going
> > > commerce, and wide trading networks, that just
> > > perhaps
> > > you might want to read up on their cultures if
> > only
> > > a
> > > little bit?
> > >
> > > After all, opinions which are not based on
> > evidence
> > > often are little more than guesses, and those
> > > guesses
> > > often throw more light on the guessor's
> > > pre-suppositions than the facts. Sometimes, for
> > > example, the guesses can reveal a real racist.
> > >
> > > As for background reading, a good source for an
> > > introduction to the area is my original survey
> of
> > > the
> > > area, the link to which I provided. It was
> posted
> > to
> > > "anthropolgy in the news" site out of Texas A&M
> > > several months back, and it is quite likely that
> > > your
> > > meso-american colleagues upstairs read it.
> > >
> > > And please take a copy of your note and my reply
> > > with
> > > you when you go upstairs to visit them. I am
> quite
> > > sure they will enjoy reading it.
> > >
> > > I know I will.
> > >
> > > ep
> > >
> > > --- Marco Langbroek <marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl>
> > > wrote:
> > > > E.P. Grondine wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > It must be remembered that the massive
> > > > > Rio Cuarto impact (350 megatons, 25 October,
> > > 2360
> > > > BCE)
> > > > > occured "near" to Campo de Cielo. Before
> the
> > > Rio
> > > > > Cuarto impact event, South America was
> > populated
> > > > by
> > > > > culturally advanced peoples, who were killed
> > by
> > > > the
> > > > > impact. These people would have been in
> trade
> > > > contact
> > > > > with both the Olmec and Maya.
> > > > >
> > > > > There is little doubt that the Maya were
> > > severely
> > > > > affected by the Rio Cuarto impact.
> > > > > and hence their interest less than 35 years
> > > later
> > > > > (2325 BCE) in the area they called
> "Matawil".
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ed,
> > > >
> > > > My apologies, I actually took your initial
> mail
> > > > serious and not as the joke
> > > > as it was intended to be. Maybe I did because
> > > > regularly this kind of posts
> > > > pop up which >are< meant to be serious by the
> > > person
> > > > posting it!
> > > >
> > > > At any rate I must have been sleeping when I
> hit
> > > the
> > > > reply button for my
> > > > earlier response. While noting the geographic
> > > > discrepancy, the 2500 year
> > > > chronological discrepancy (for the Maya: for
> the
> > > > Olmecs its a mere 1000
> > > > years) went completely unnoticed by me. Shame,
> > now
> > > I
> > > > won't dare to face my
> > > > colleagues at the Meso-American department one
> > > floor
> > > > up in the building for
> > > > at least 5 days to come... Well, as an excuse,
> I
> > > am
> > > > of course a Palaeolithic
> > > > archaeologist, so Mayans and other
> meso-American
> > > > civilizations are not my
> > > > 'core business'...
> > > >
> > > > But would this not make great stuff for a
> > scenario
> > > > for a sci-fied-up Indiana
> > > > Jones Movie? In which our hero enters a Maya
> > > pyramid
> > > > in search for a golden
> > > > statuette, which is the entrance to a time
> > tunnel
> > > > transferring him from 1939
> > > > AD to 300 AD, the start of Maya civilization.
> > That
> > > > time-tunnel is kept
> > > > operational by the Maya high priests (not so
> > > > peculiar, for those guys were
> > > > obsessed with time keeping and intricate
> > calendar
> > > > systems), with the help of
> > > > some alien technology perhaps. They a.o. use
> it
> > to
> > > > make a trading contact
> > > > over a gap of 2500 years with those Pampa
> > indians
> > > in
> > > > Argentinia, at 2300 BC,
> > > > when the Campo de Cielo impact is imminent...
> > > > Our only problem for the scenario would be,
> how
> > > the
> > > > impact at 2325 BC all
> > > > affected this, or most notably the Maya. For
> > they
> > > > simply could re-establish
> > > > contact by having their time-tunnel connect to
> a
> > > > moment just prior to the
> > > > event, isn't it? Hmmmm, let's see; maybe they
> > > > couldn't adjust the length of
> > > > their time tunnels? No, that won't work,
> because
> > > > with a fixed length they
> > > > could not transfer our Indy from 1939 AD to
> 300
> > AD
> > > > too....rats, and we
> > > > really can't leave Indy out.....! But wait:
> > > eerrrrr;
> > > > maybe they could get
> > > > connection only to moments in history for
> which
> > a
> > > > very peculiar situation
> > > > existed, eerrrr, let's say: Venus had to be in
> > > > conjunction with the sun
> > > > while Jupiter was in the Pleiades or something
> > > like
> > > > that?! Would fit nice
> > > > with the Maya calendrical and celestial
> > mechanics
> > > > obsession... Yes, that's a
> > > > solution alright....now let's see, where did I
> > > have
> > > > Steven Spielberg's
> > > > phonenumber......?
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > - Marco
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Marco Langbroek private:
> > > > marco.langbroek_at_wanadoo.nl
> > > > Leiden University work:
> > > > m.langbroek_at_arch.leidenuniv.nl
> > > > Faculty of Archaeology
> > > > P.O. Box 9515
> > > > http://home.wanadoo.nl/marco.langbroek/
> > > > NL-2300 RA Leiden
> > > > The Netherlands
> > > >
> > > > "What seest thou else
> > > > In the dark backward and abysm of time?"
> > > >
> > > > William Shakespeare: The Tempest act I scene 2
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ______________________________________________
> > > > Meteorite-list mailing list
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> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > >
> > >
> > >
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Received on Sat 27 Apr 2002 06:23:11 PM PDT