[meteorite-list] Paradox; we need to understand "time"

From: M Yousef <diamondmeteor_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:54:01 2004
Message-ID: <F174czrdCLU4ZRCWO8F000033fe_at_hotmail.com>

Dear Bob;
First, there is a mistake in your question: Nobody says the universe was
created from "nothing". There is nothing called "nothing". "Nothing" is what
is not; i.e. what does not exist. Non-existance can never be turned into
existance.

What is correct is: The universe was created from a singularity; like a
black hole; a condense matter in almost zero volume (space) and at almost
zero time. Then this matter in this singularity blasted off in what is known
as the big bang and it started expanding (and still). This expanding
universe has in the future three options: 1- keeps expanding for ever (open
universe), 2- conracts again at some point (closed universe), or 3- stops
and stay static (flat universe). If it chooses 2 (depending on its mass
density) it will return to the singularity again and maybe another big bang
again and so on (pulsating universe).

In either case, one may ask: what was there before this singularity? We can
turn this question religious if you like, but if you dont prefer we can turn
it into metaphysics, because our laws of physics and mathematics CAN NOT be
applied for singularities. This question has been asked before to many
religion leaders; What was God doing before He created the universe? And the
answer usualy is: "God created the universe AND time, and not: the universe
in time".

Away from religion, this question was the subject of intensive debate
between Aristotle and Plato and their schools:

Plato considers time to be created with the world, while Aristotle believes
that the world was created in time, which is an infinite and continuous
extension.
Plato says:
   "Time, then, and the heaven came into being at the same instant in order
that, having been created together, if ever there was to be a dissolution of
them, they might be dissolved together. It was framed after the pattern of
the eternal nature, that it might resemble this as far as was possible; for
the pattern exists from eternity, and the created heaven has been, and is,
and will be, in all time."

Aristotle believes that Plato’s proposition requires a point in time that is
the beginning of time and there is no time before it. This is inconceivable
for Aristotle who adopts Democritus notion of uncreated time and says:
   "But so far as time is concerned we see that all with one exception are
in agreement in saying that it is uncreated: in fact, it is just this that
enables Democritus to show that all things cannot have had a becoming: for
time, he says, is uncreated. Plato alone asserts the creation of time,
saying that it had a becoming together with the universe, the universe
according to him having had a becoming."

Time for Aristotle is a continuum and it is always associated with motion,
and as such, it can’t have a beginning. He says that time is the "number of
movement in respect of the before and after, and is continuous.... In
respect of size there is no minimum; for every line is divided ad infinitum.
Hence it is so with time."

Plato on the other hand cosiders time as the circular motion of the heavens,
while Aristotle said it is not motion but the measure of motion and he says
that it is like a circle , a structure that has no beginning or end and so
is endless in both directions. Since everything in the world is finite, also
time has to be finite and since it is continuous it has to be a circle
because we cannot conceive of a first time; for any first time we could
conceive of a time before that., so time has to be circular.
Arsitotle says: "Now since time cannot exist and is unthinkable apart from
the moment, and the moment a kind of middle-point, uniting as it does in
itself both a beginning and an end, a beginning of future time and an end of
past time, it follows that there must always be time: for the extremity of
the last period of time that we take must be found in some moment, since
time contains no point of contact for us except the moment. Therefore, since
the moment is both a beginning and an end, there must always be time on both
sides of it. But if this is true of time, it is evident that it must also be
true of motion, time being a kind of affection of motion."

WE CONCLUDE HERE that time for Aristotle is circular and the world was
created somewhere along this circle while for Plato time is continuous and
was created with the world. Both views have unsolvable drawbacks.

Ibn Arabi (1165 A.D.) shares the idea of a circular endless time with
Aristotle and that it is a measure of motion, but he does not consider it as
continuum. On the other hand Ibn Arabi agrees with Plato that time is
created with the world and refuses Aristotle’s proposal that the world is
created in time. In fact Plato was right when he considered time to be
created, but Aristotle refused this because he could not conceive of a
starting point to the world nor to time. Only after the theory of general
relativity in 1915 that introduced the idea of ‘curved time’ that we could
envisage a finite but curved time that has a beginning. By this we could
combine between Plato’s and Aristotle’s opposing views. However, Ibn Arabi
did that seven centuries before, and he also explicity spoke about curved
and relative time (ask for references if you want).
Ibn Arabi also extends the concept of time into the abstarct world (i.e. not
material) and he says that the soul that comprehends time has two forces one
is practical by which it senses material objects and their motion (change in
state or place) [this is physical time], and the other is theoretical by
which it gain knowledge (change in status)[this is abstarct time]. Physical
time is associated with motion in space and it existed with the material
world while abstarct time is associated with the changes of states of
knowledge (of the divine spirits (=waves) who are going to create the
world), and beyond all that there is God in TimeLessNess existance.

Summery:
As far as the material world is concerned, and that is what we mean by the
universe, this universe was created from a singularity MORE than 15 billion
years ago AS MEASURED NOW from our position in the space-time coordinates.
15 billion years, that is the distance to the most distant objects detected
from earth, but not to the singularity itself. Although those most distant
objects (radio galaxies and Quazars) appear to be close to the beginning of
the universe, but this does not mean that the singularity is 16 or 17 or
whatever close number to 15 billion years away. This is because the
space-time is NOT FLAT which means that time in particular does not measure
equally in all its points, especially when we approach the singularity. In
other words, if we move back in time and with the speed of light towards
this singularity we will never reach it, and what appears to us here few
seconds it will be there billions of years. This is because of the curvature
of time.



Cheers
Mohamed
==================================================











>From: BOORX4_at_aol.com
>To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>Subject: [meteorite-list] Paradox
>Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:46:43 EST
>
>Hi List Members,
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong. The Astronomy community theorize that the
>universe was created in a millisecond, a flash, the big-bang. From nothing
>to everything, instantaneously.
> We all accept the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed.
>So how can this be?????
>Inquiring minds would like to know.
>
>Thanks,
>Bob
>
>______________________________________________
>Meteorite-list mailing list
>Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list




Sincerely

Mohamed H. Yousef
----------------------------------------------




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
Received on Tue 05 Feb 2002 03:22:20 AM PST