[meteorite-list] Paradox; we need to understand "time"

From: DiamondMeteor <DiamondMeteor_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:54:01 2004
Message-ID: <OE16sKFUV6mwNdeKBwp00003d11_at_hotmail.com>

In fact yes: time does not have a real existance, nor space. Existance can
only be attributed to matter which, as it moves, produce the sense of time
and space.
We can go into a deeper off-list discussion abot this subject if you like.

Cheers
Mohamed

".and time and space are also a consequence of natural bodies but time is
something ilusionary that does not exist but is introduced by the motion of
orbits and localized things when we ask about them by 'when', so time and
space do not exist in reality but the existance is to the things that move
and still.", [Ibn Arabi, AlFutuhat AlMAkiyya: part II, Page 458, Line 1].

==========================================================================
----- Original Message -----
From: "drtanuki" <drtanuki_at_tkc.att.ne.jp>
To: "M Yousef" <diamondmeteor_at_hotmail.com>;
<meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Paradox; we need to understand "time"


> Then, Mr. Yousef,
> You are totally correct in saying all rocks are meteorites as well as
all
> matter by a broad definition! Dirk Ross....Tokyo
> But, on one point I disagree. Time doesn't exist.
>
> M Yousef wrote:
>
> > Dear Bob;
> > First, there is a mistake in your question: Nobody says the universe was
> > created from "nothing". There is nothing called "nothing". "Nothing" is
what
> > is not; i.e. what does not exist. Non-existance can never be turned into
> > existance.
> >
> > What is correct is: The universe was created from a singularity; like a
> > black hole; a condense matter in almost zero volume (space) and at
almost
> > zero time. Then this matter in this singularity blasted off in what is
known
> > as the big bang and it started expanding (and still). This expanding
> > universe has in the future three options: 1- keeps expanding for ever
(open
> > universe), 2- conracts again at some point (closed universe), or 3-
stops
> > and stay static (flat universe). If it chooses 2 (depending on its mass
> > density) it will return to the singularity again and maybe another big
bang
> > again and so on (pulsating universe).
> >
> > In either case, one may ask: what was there before this singularity? We
can
> > turn this question religious if you like, but if you dont prefer we can
turn
> > it into metaphysics, because our laws of physics and mathematics CAN NOT
be
> > applied for singularities. This question has been asked before to many
> > religion leaders; What was God doing before He created the universe? And
the
> > answer usualy is: "God created the universe AND time, and not: the
universe
> > in time".
> >
> > Away from religion, this question was the subject of intensive debate
> > between Aristotle and Plato and their schools:
> >
> > Plato considers time to be created with the world, while Aristotle
believes
> > that the world was created in time, which is an infinite and continuous
> > extension.
> > Plato says:
> > "Time, then, and the heaven came into being at the same instant in
order
> > that, having been created together, if ever there was to be a
dissolution of
> > them, they might be dissolved together. It was framed after the pattern
of
> > the eternal nature, that it might resemble this as far as was possible;
for
> > the pattern exists from eternity, and the created heaven has been, and
is,
> > and will be, in all time."
> >
> > Aristotle believes that Plato's proposition requires a point in time
that is
> > the beginning of time and there is no time before it. This is
inconceivable
> > for Aristotle who adopts Democritus notion of uncreated time and says:
> > "But so far as time is concerned we see that all with one exception
are
> > in agreement in saying that it is uncreated: in fact, it is just this
that
> > enables Democritus to show that all things cannot have had a becoming:
for
> > time, he says, is uncreated. Plato alone asserts the creation of time,
> > saying that it had a becoming together with the universe, the universe
> > according to him having had a becoming."
> >
> > Time for Aristotle is a continuum and it is always associated with
motion,
> > and as such, it can't have a beginning. He says that time is the "number
of
> > movement in respect of the before and after, and is continuous.... In
> > respect of size there is no minimum; for every line is divided ad
infinitum.
> > Hence it is so with time."
> >
> > Plato on the other hand cosiders time as the circular motion of the
heavens,
> > while Aristotle said it is not motion but the measure of motion and he
says
> > that it is like a circle , a structure that has no beginning or end and
so
> > is endless in both directions. Since everything in the world is finite,
also
> > time has to be finite and since it is continuous it has to be a circle
> > because we cannot conceive of a first time; for any first time we could
> > conceive of a time before that., so time has to be circular.
> > Arsitotle says: "Now since time cannot exist and is unthinkable apart
from
> > the moment, and the moment a kind of middle-point, uniting as it does in
> > itself both a beginning and an end, a beginning of future time and an
end of
> > past time, it follows that there must always be time: for the extremity
of
> > the last period of time that we take must be found in some moment, since
> > time contains no point of contact for us except the moment. Therefore,
since
> > the moment is both a beginning and an end, there must always be time on
both
> > sides of it. But if this is true of time, it is evident that it must
also be
> > true of motion, time being a kind of affection of motion."
> >
> > WE CONCLUDE HERE that time for Aristotle is circular and the world was
> > created somewhere along this circle while for Plato time is continuous
and
> > was created with the world. Both views have unsolvable drawbacks.
> >
> > Ibn Arabi (1165 A.D.) shares the idea of a circular endless time with
> > Aristotle and that it is a measure of motion, but he does not consider
it as
> > continuum. On the other hand Ibn Arabi agrees with Plato that time is
> > created with the world and refuses Aristotle's proposal that the world
is
> > created in time. In fact Plato was right when he considered time to be
> > created, but Aristotle refused this because he could not conceive of a
> > starting point to the world nor to time. Only after the theory of
general
> > relativity in 1915 that introduced the idea of 'curved time' that we
could
> > envisage a finite but curved time that has a beginning. By this we could
> > combine between Plato's and Aristotle's opposing views. However, Ibn
Arabi
> > did that seven centuries before, and he also explicity spoke about
curved
> > and relative time (ask for references if you want).
> > Ibn Arabi also extends the concept of time into the abstarct world (i.e.
not
> > material) and he says that the soul that comprehends time has two forces
one
> > is practical by which it senses material objects and their motion
(change in
> > state or place) [this is physical time], and the other is theoretical by
> > which it gain knowledge (change in status)[this is abstarct time].
Physical
> > time is associated with motion in space and it existed with the material
> > world while abstarct time is associated with the changes of states of
> > knowledge (of the divine spirits (=waves) who are going to create the
> > world), and beyond all that there is God in TimeLessNess existance.
> >
> > Summery:
> > As far as the material world is concerned, and that is what we mean by
the
> > universe, this universe was created from a singularity MORE than 15
billion
> > years ago AS MEASURED NOW from our position in the space-time
coordinates.
> > 15 billion years, that is the distance to the most distant objects
detected
> > from earth, but not to the singularity itself. Although those most
distant
> > objects (radio galaxies and Quazars) appear to be close to the beginning
of
> > the universe, but this does not mean that the singularity is 16 or 17 or
> > whatever close number to 15 billion years away. This is because the
> > space-time is NOT FLAT which means that time in particular does not
measure
> > equally in all its points, especially when we approach the singularity.
In
> > other words, if we move back in time and with the speed of light towards
> > this singularity we will never reach it, and what appears to us here few
> > seconds it will be there billions of years. This is because of the
curvature
> > of time.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Mohamed
> > ==================================================
> >
> > >From: BOORX4_at_aol.com
> > >To: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > >Subject: [meteorite-list] Paradox
> > >Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2002 18:46:43 EST
> > >
> > >Hi List Members,
> > >
> > > Correct me if I'm wrong. The Astronomy community theorize that the
> > >universe was created in a millisecond, a flash, the big-bang. From
nothing
> > >to everything, instantaneously.
> > > We all accept the theory that matter cannot be created or
destroyed.
> > >So how can this be?????
> > >Inquiring minds would like to know.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Bob
> > >
> > >______________________________________________
> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
> > >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Mohamed H. Yousef
> > ----------------------------------------------
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
>
>
Received on Tue 05 Feb 2002 06:19:05 AM PST