[meteorite-list] Bessey comment

From: John Divelbiss <j.divelbiss_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:08:22 2004
Message-ID: <000f01c25545$d37ec480$37005a0c_at_0m824>

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Ron and associates,
=20
Greetings. First off, I know you have along distinguished career in this =
arena and I wish to not offend you and others who have given so much to =
this great interest of many.

My frustration is the long list of Sahara and NWA numbers that do not =
have official classifications including weights, etc. As Mark Mafer =
suggested there must be ways to help this process out by using a simpler =
method of classification for ordinary chondrites. It would not be the =
full blown method, but a reduced method that at least would =
label/categorize many of the unknowns. Is that possible? Make it a =
special label as "probable" or something like that. I can make guesses, =
but I'm sure my accuracy would be poor.

I believe Dean when he says he has tried with difficulty to get =
classifications. Maybe at this point(due to frustration) he is just =
passing the burden on to others to keep his business going. Is it a lack =
of effort or is there one big roadblock, that only opens for the =
achondrites and the #3 chondrites. I don't know...but what I do know is =
that the list of official meteorites is short compared to the amount of =
material out there.

As for the article, yes I read it this week and it sounds very simple to =
get a #. Who would someone like me contact, and what are the odds of =
getting a classification? A number without official (even if probable) =
classification is not helpful in my opinion. I mean if I go to the =
trouble of sending in something, only to end up with a number...what is =
the point? I can label it I guess.

I will try myself in near future to get a classification on an =
unknown...and report back with my experience.=20

Thanx Ron for your interest,

John
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: meteorite1.com=20
  To: John Divelbiss ; Bernd Pauli HD ; Radosevich, Dave=20
  Cc: meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 8:48 PM
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bessey comment


  John Divelbiss wrote:
  <<I read an article written in May by fellow list member Norbert =
Classen that
  discusses this issue from another field collectors point of view. I =
totally
  agree and hope others will come forward to help this situation out. =
The link
  is http://www.meteorite.fr/en/news/feature.htm>>

  You will want to see my article in the Sept. 2002 METEORITE TIMES =
(under the heading Meteorites 101) at
  http://www.meteoritetimes.com/current_issue/index.htm
  re: Update on NWA Classifications with comments from Dr. Jutta Zipfel =
from the NomCom.

  This information is provided as a number of persons have indicated an =
interest in hearing from the NomCom regarding this matter.

  Ron
  R. N. Hartman
  METEORITES and MEMBRANE SUSPENSION BOXES

  rnh_at_meteorite1.com
  www.meteorite1.com

  order_at_membranebox.com
  www.membranebox.com

  Mailing address:
  The R. N. Hartman Collection METEORITES
  P.O. Box 94
  Walnut, CA 91788-0094 (U.S.)










  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: John Divelbiss <j.divelbiss_at_worldnet.att.net>
  To: Bernd Pauli HD <bernd.pauli_at_lehrer.uni-karlsruhe.de>; Radosevich, =
Dave <Dave.Radosevich_at_trw.com>
  Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 3:42 PM
  Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bessey comment


> Bernd, Dave and list,
>=20
> I concur with the comments to date. But I thought it really wasn't =
meteorite
> until the "council" says it is? For now it is just a rock, right.
>=20
> My gut tells me that science as a whole is missing the boat with the
> NWA's...someday the negative positions taken during these times over =
the
> lack information like location, particulars of find, etc. will be a =
mistake
> that can't be fixed. I know this subject has had a lot of press, but =
from a
> simpletons point of view the treatment of the most NWA's not being
> legitimate is wrong. I have no clue as to the fix(es) for the =
problems
> perceived, but to "putoff or shun" the likes of Dean and others to =
get
> classifications done in a timely matter is a mistake. Some dealers =
have
> direct connections that make this less of a problem...but they are =
in the
> minority I would think. A concerted effort to improve all aspects of =
this
> problem, including the availability of labs capable of doing such =
work
> should be done before we lose the bulk of potential information on =
these
> great rocks. It is late in the game, but not too late I would hope. =
There
> are many great pieces out here that are orphaned at this =
point...with owners
> wanting to know what it is.
>=20
> Protesting not to buy or acknowledge this so called junk only =
reinforces
> this stubborn position. Those doing so are adding to the thick crust =
of the
> objectors...limiting science instead of improving it.
>=20
> From the sounds of it, fixing the problems (some real, some =
perceived due to
> association) in Morocco are probably the hardest to resolve...and =
they may
> never be. But once the rocks are in hand, why can't the community =
come to
> grips with helping all of us with the classification process.
>=20
> This is my two cents. I am newbie to all this, collecting only for =
three
> years. I'm sure many smart people out there have more insight. But =
when you
> break it down in my mind, the general treatment of NWA's (and other =
African
> meteorites) is WRONG!
>=20
> I read an article written in May by fellow list member Norbert =
Classen that
> discusses this issue from another field collectors point of view. I =
totally
> agree and hope others will come forward to help this situation out. =
The link
> is http://www.meteorite.fr/en/news/feature.htm
>=20
> Thanx for your time and forgive me if you are offended,
>=20
> John Divelbiss (BL #33)
> IMCA2006
>=20
> PS If no one responds, that's OK with me...it has happened before.
> PSS Dean, keep trying for all of us.
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bernd Pauli HD" <bernd.pauli_at_lehrer.uni-karlsruhe.de>
> To: "Radosevich, Dave" <Dave.Radosevich_at_trw.com>
> Cc: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 4:31 PM
> Subject: [meteorite-list] Bessey comment
>=20
>=20
> > An enthusiastic Dave wrote:
> >
> > > If this is the "worst of the bunch" then the other 39 folks
> > > got really really nice specimens. My BL15 is way better than
> > > the photo. Mine has it all. It's oriented and shows flow lines,
> > > rollover edge, and plenty of thumb prints. A personal thanks to
> > > Dean Bessey for bringing this truly nice NWA to all of us (40).
> >
> >
> > Hi Dave, BL-owners and List,
> >
> > Welcome to the BL-Club :-) Your description says it all! Congrats
> > on this breathtaking specimen. I wanted to buy this one because of
> > its relatively low weight (which saves money) but "didn't like the
> > horizontal scar". Oh, well ...
> >
> > > I normally dont buy NWA's for reasons we have shared on this =
list.
> >
> > They are meteorites without a pedigree ... but does beauty need
> > a pedigree? They are meteorites. They have come from the same
> > places as their "decent" brethren w i t h a pedigree! My two
> > Euro-cents!
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Bernd (BL #18)
> >
> > ______________________________________________
> > Meteorite-list mailing list
> > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
> >
>=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>=20

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Ron and associates,</FONT><FONT size=3D2></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Greetings. First off, I know you have along =
distinguished=20
career in this arena and I wish to not offend you and others who have =
given so=20
much to this great interest of many.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>My frustration is the long list of Sahara and NWA =
numbers that=20
do not have official classifications including weights, etc. As Mark =
Mafer=20
suggested there must be ways to help this process out by using a simpler =
method=20
of classification for ordinary chondrites. It would not be the full =
blown=20
method, but&nbsp;a&nbsp;reduced method that at least would =
label/categorize many=20
of the unknowns. Is that possible? Make it a special label as "probable" =
or=20
something like that. I can make guesses, but I'm sure my accuracy would =
be=20
poor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I believe Dean when he says he has tried&nbsp;with difficulty to =
get=20
classifications. Maybe at this point(due to frustration) he is just =
passing the=20
burden on to others to keep his business going. Is&nbsp;it a lack of =
effort or=20
is there one big roadblock, that only opens for the achondrites and the =
#3=20
chondrites. I don't know...but what I do know is that the list =
of&nbsp;official=20
meteorites is short compared to the amount of material =
out&nbsp;there.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>As for the article, yes I read it this week and it sounds very =
simple to=20
get a #. Who would someone like me&nbsp;contact, and&nbsp;what&nbsp;are =
the odds=20
of getting a classification? A number without&nbsp;official (even if =
probable)=20
classification is not&nbsp;helpful in my opinion. I mean if I go to the =
trouble=20
of sending in something, only to end up with a number...what is the=20
point?&nbsp;I can label it I guess.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I will try myself in near future to get a classification on an=20
unknown...and report back with my experience. </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Thanx Ron for your interest,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>John</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV></FONT>-----=20
  Original Message ----- </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A href=3D"mailto:capricorn89_at_earthlink.net"=20
  title=3Dcapricorn89_at_earthlink.net>meteorite1.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:j.divelbiss_at_worldnet.att.net"=20
  title=3Dj.divelbiss_at_worldnet.att.net>John Divelbiss</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:bernd.pauli_at_lehrer.uni-karlsruhe.de"=20
  title=3Dbernd.pauli_at_lehrer.uni-karlsruhe.de>Bernd Pauli HD</A> ; <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:Dave.Radosevich_at_trw.com"=20
  title=3DDave.Radosevich_at_trw.com>Radosevich, Dave</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A=20
  href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com"=20
  =
title=3Dmeteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>meteorite-list@meteoritecentr=
al.com</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 05, =
2002 8:48=20
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [meteorite-list] =
Bessey=20
  comment</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>John Divelbiss wrote:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>&lt;&lt;I read an article written in May by fellow =
list=20
  member Norbert Classen that<BR>discusses this issue from another field =

  collectors point of view. I totally<BR>agree and hope others will come =
forward=20
  to help this situation out. The link<BR>is <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.meteorite.fr/en/news/feature.htm">http://www.meteorite=
.fr/en/news/feature.htm</A>&gt;&gt;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>You will want to see my article in the Sept. 2002 =
METEORITE=20
  TIMES (under the heading Meteorites 101) at</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.meteoritetimes.com/current_issue/index.htm">http://www=
.meteoritetimes.com/current_issue/index.htm</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>re:&nbsp; <EM><U>Update on NWA=20
  Classifications&nbsp;</U></EM>with comments from Dr. Jutta Zipfel from =
the=20
  NomCom.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>This information is provided as a number of =
persons have=20
  indicated an interest in hearing from the NomCom regarding this=20
  matter.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P><B><FONT face=3D"Lucida Handwriting" =
size=3D4>Ron<BR></FONT></B><FONT=20
  face=3DArial size=3D1>R. N. Hartman<BR>METEORITES and MEMBRANE =
SUSPENSION=20
  BOXES</FONT></P>
  <P><A href=3D"mailto:rnh_at_meteorite1.com"><FONT face=3DArial=20
  size=3D1>rnh_at_meteorite1.com<BR>www.meteorite1.com</FONT></A></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1><A=20
  href=3D"mailto:order_at_membranebox.coom">order@membranebox.com<BR></A><A =

  href=3D"http://www.membramebox.com">www.membranebox.com</A></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D1>Mailing address:<BR>The R. N. Hartman =
Collection=20
  METEORITES<BR>P.O. Box 94<BR>Walnut, CA 91788-0094 =
(U.S.)</FONT></P></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>----- Original Message ----- </FONT>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>From: John Divelbiss &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:j.divelbiss_at_worldnet.att.net">j.divelbiss@worldnet.att.net=
</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>To: Bernd Pauli HD &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:bernd.pauli_at_lehrer.uni-karlsruhe.de">bernd.pauli@lehrer.un=
i-karlsruhe.de</A>&gt;;=20
  Radosevich, Dave &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Dave.Radosevich_at_trw.com">Dave.Radosevich@trw.com</A>&gt;</=
FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Cc: &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list@meteor=
itecentral.com</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 3:42 =
PM</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=3D2>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Bessey=20
  comment</FONT></DIV></DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=3D2>&gt; Bernd, Dave and list,<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt; I=20
  concur with the comments to date. But I thought it really wasn't=20
  meteorite<BR>&gt; until the "council" says it is? For now it is just a =
rock,=20
  right.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; My gut tells me that science as a whole is =
missing the=20
  boat with the<BR>&gt; NWA's...someday the negative positions taken =
during=20
  these times over the<BR>&gt; lack information like location, =
particulars of=20
  find, etc. will be a mistake<BR>&gt; that can't be fixed. I know this =
subject=20
  has had a lot of press, but from a<BR>&gt; simpletons point of view =
the=20
  treatment of the most NWA's not being<BR>&gt; legitimate is wrong. I =
have no=20
  clue as to the fix(es) for the problems<BR>&gt; perceived, but to =
"putoff or=20
  shun" the likes of Dean and others to get<BR>&gt; classifications done =
in a=20
  timely matter is a mistake. Some dealers have<BR>&gt; direct =
connections that=20
  make this less of a problem...but they are in the<BR>&gt; minority I =
would=20
  think. A concerted effort to improve all aspects of this<BR>&gt; =
problem,=20
  including the availability of labs capable of doing such work<BR>&gt; =
should=20
  be done before we lose the bulk of potential information on =
these<BR>&gt;=20
  great rocks. It is late in the game, but not too late I would hope.=20
  There<BR>&gt; are many great pieces out here that are orphaned at this =

  point...with owners<BR>&gt; wanting to know what it is.<BR>&gt; =
<BR>&gt;=20
  Protesting not to buy or acknowledge this so called junk only=20
  reinforces<BR>&gt; this stubborn position. Those doing so are adding =
to the=20
  thick crust of the<BR>&gt; objectors...limiting science instead of =
improving=20
  it.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; From the sounds of it, fixing the problems (some =
real,=20
  some perceived due to<BR>&gt; association) in Morocco are probably the =
hardest=20
  to resolve...and they may<BR>&gt; never be. But once the rocks are in =
hand,=20
  why can't the community come to<BR>&gt; grips with helping all of us =
with the=20
  classification process.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; This is my two cents. I am =
newbie to=20
  all this, collecting only for three<BR>&gt; years. I'm sure many smart =
people=20
  out there have more insight.&nbsp; But when you<BR>&gt; break it down =
in my=20
  mind, the general treatment of NWA's (and other African<BR>&gt; =
meteorites) is=20
  WRONG!<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; I read an article written in May by fellow =
list member=20
  Norbert Classen that<BR>&gt; discusses this issue from another field=20
  collectors point of view. I totally<BR>&gt; agree and hope others will =
come=20
  forward to help this situation out. The link<BR>&gt; is <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.meteorite.fr/en/news/feature.htm">http://www.meteorite=
.fr/en/news/feature.htm</A><BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt; Thanx for your time and forgive me if you are =
offended,<BR>&gt;=20
  <BR>&gt; John Divelbiss (BL #33)<BR>&gt; IMCA2006<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; PS =
If no=20
  one responds, that's OK with me...it has happened before.<BR>&gt; PSS =
Dean,=20
  keep trying for all of us.<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; ----- Original =
Message=20
  -----<BR>&gt; From: "Bernd Pauli HD" &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:bernd.pauli_at_lehrer.uni-karlsruhe.de">bernd.pauli@lehrer.un=
i-karlsruhe.de</A>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  To: "Radosevich, Dave" &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Dave.Radosevich_at_trw.com">Dave.Radosevich@trw.com</A>&gt;<B=
R>&gt;=20
  Cc: &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">meteorite-list@meteor=
itecentral.com</A>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 4:31 PM<BR>&gt; Subject: =
[meteorite-list]=20
  Bessey comment<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; &gt; An enthusiastic Dave=20
  wrote:<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; If this is the "worst of the =
bunch" then=20
  the other 39 folks<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; got really really nice&nbsp; =
specimens.=20
  My BL15 is way better than<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; the photo. Mine has it =
all. It's=20
  oriented and shows flow lines,<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; rollover edge, and =
plenty of=20
  thumb prints. A personal thanks to<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; Dean Bessey for =
bringing=20
  this truly nice NWA to all of us (40).<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;<BR>&gt; &gt;=20
  Hi Dave, BL-owners and List,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Welcome to the =
BL-Club=20
  :-) Your description says it all! Congrats<BR>&gt; &gt; on this =
breathtaking=20
  specimen. I wanted to buy this one because of<BR>&gt; &gt; its =
relatively low=20
  weight (which saves money) but "didn't like the<BR>&gt; &gt; =
horizontal scar".=20
  Oh, well ...<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; &gt; I normally dont buy NWA's =
for=20
  reasons we have shared on this list.<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; They =
are=20
  meteorites without a pedigree ... but does beauty need<BR>&gt; &gt; a=20
  pedigree? They are meteorites. They have come from the same<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
  places as their "decent" brethren&nbsp;&nbsp; w i t h&nbsp;&nbsp; a =
pedigree!=20
  My two<BR>&gt; &gt; Euro-cents!<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Best=20
  regards,<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; &gt; Bernd (BL #18)<BR>&gt; &gt;<BR>&gt; =
&gt;=20
  ______________________________________________<BR>&gt; &gt; =
Meteorite-list=20
  mailing list<BR>&gt; &gt; <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">Meteorite-list@meteor=
itecentral.com</A><BR>&gt;=20
  &gt; <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://w=
ww.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A><BR>&gt;=20
  &gt;<BR>&gt; <BR>&gt; <BR>&gt;=20
  ______________________________________________<BR>&gt; Meteorite-list =
mailing=20
  list<BR>&gt; <A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com">Meteorite-list@meteor=
itecentral.com</A><BR>&gt;=20
  <A=20
  =
href=3D"http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list">http://w=
ww.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list</A><BR>&gt;=20
  </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C25524.4B2E3BE0--
Received on Thu 05 Sep 2002 09:36:28 PM PDT


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