[meteorite-list] Shirokovsky

From: harlan trammell <skyrox_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:22:37 2004
Message-ID: <BAY1-F59e1fTvOSQeSO000035e2_at_hotmail.com>

<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>it is a fake period. where is the crust? have you ever seen a slice 4 sale with even a "rind" of the edge showing? any troilite? i have bought real brahin complete with weathered hematite crust on edge for 60 cents/g. why bother w/ fakes&nbsp;for $40/g?<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Adam Hupe" <ADAMHUPE_at_ATTBI.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <METEORITE-LIST_at_METEORITECENTRAL.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Shirokovsky
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 09:38:05 -0700
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Dear Laurie and List Members,
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;You are asking us to believe that the investigative team assembled by the
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Nomenclature Committee is in error? This team employed some of the best
<DIV></DIV>&gt;scientists in the world including the president of the Mineralogical
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Society. Carnegie Laboratory in Washington D.C. has some of the most up to
<DIV></DIV>&gt;date equipment in the world for testing oxygen-isotopes. Of course they
<DIV></DIV>&gt;prepared the samples properly and used Laser fluorination. They usually
<DIV></DIV>&gt;prepare several samples, not just one. They also constantly monitor the
<DIV></DIV>&gt;error on the equipment and can tell the error exactly on each run, usually
<DIV></DIV>&gt;less than 1%. The other institutions mentioned on the official Nom Com
<DIV></DIV>&gt;report regarding Shirokovsky employed scientist with decades of experience
<DIV></DIV>&gt;in the study of meteoritics.
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;There was not a single test in all the labs involved that showed this object
<DIV></DIV>&gt;to be a meteorite. I think it is time to start issuing refunds instead of
<DIV></DIV>&gt;pointing fingers at prestigious institutions and if by some miracle it is
<DIV></DIV>&gt;accepted as a meteorite in the future then sell some of it.
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Best Regards,
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Adam
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;----- Original Message -----
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Laurie Kallis" <LAURIEKALLIS_at_HOTMAIL.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <METEORITE-LIST_at_METEORITECENTRAL.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 8:38 AM
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: [meteorite-list] Shirokovsky
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; First, let me apologize for the length of this posting.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; We have been involved with the distribution of Shirokovsky Meteorite since
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; family made the recovery last year. Shirokovskymeteorite.com is our
<DIV></DIV>&gt;website.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Since questions of the meteorite's authenticity were raised we have
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; refrained from making sales and have added a clause to that effect to our
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; webiste.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; One of the members of the Russian group who made the recovery has written
<DIV></DIV>&gt;in
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; response to the the questions of authenticity and the accusations. We have
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; translated his response and pasted it into the body of this email. This
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; same article will soon be added to the website.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Specimens, properly prepared specimens, are currently being retested in
<DIV></DIV>&gt;St.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Petersburg.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Until then........
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; So,what on Earth is it?
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Search Expeditions for the Ugleuralsky (Shirokovsky) Meteorite: 2000-2003
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; What distinguished the search expeditions then known as the "Ugleuralsky"
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; meteorite expeditions from other contemporary meteoritic expeditions was
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; their official tone: the preparation under the auspices of the Russian
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Geographical Society and the involvement of mass media. Thirty people, not
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; counting the local volunteers and Shirokovsky Power Station staff,
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; participated in the four search expeditions that took place between 2000
<DIV></DIV>&gt;and
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 2003.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; First hand witnesses of the meteorite fall who still live in the
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Shirokovsky
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; village, those who came to the hole in the ice after experiencing the
<DIV></DIV>&gt;flash
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; of light and the sound effect in 1956, were thoroughly questioned. Their
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; recollections of the location of the point of impact coincided with the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; topographic tyings to the terrain reported by the USSR Sverdlovsk Academy
<DIV></DIV>&gt;of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Science expedition carried out in 1956, immediately after the fall.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; A detailed relief map of the reservoir bottom supplied by the board of the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Shirokovsky Power Station, in concordance with the opinions of specialists
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; in ballistics, determined the extent of the search area.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; The search proved more difficult than expected because constant removal of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; sunken timber logs from the reservoir bottom over the years had dispersed
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the meteorite fragments over a much larger area than was originally
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; anticipated. Eventually, with the help of a metal detector, our group
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; recovered approximately 150 kg of samples.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Encountering Difficulties
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; The friendliness shown by the local population was inversely proportional
<DIV></DIV>&gt;to
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the growing awareness of the potential value of the possible find. A
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; representative of the local 'Family', paid us a visit by jeep, showing a
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; great but vaguely formulated interest in our diving activities.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; After our diving group departed in late spring, scientists from the city
<DIV></DIV>&gt;of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sverdlovsk, led by professor Grokhovsky, arrived with their own group of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; divers who risked their lives on weakened ice that had developed cracks
<DIV></DIV>&gt;and
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; was no longer safe to walk on in the hope of locating any meteoritic
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; substance missed by our group.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; We appealed to the Committee for Meteorites at the Vernadsky Institute to
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; have samples of the Shirokovsky specimens tested. Our appeal was rejected
<DIV></DIV>&gt;on
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the grounds that they had no information about the Ugleuralsky meteorite
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; fall, despite a number of scientific and media reports dating back to
<DIV></DIV>&gt;1956.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sampling services and subsequent registration were offered by enthusiast
<DIV></DIV>&gt;A.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Milanovsky (http://meteorites.narod.ru), but our group was not looking for
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; easy ways. We planned to have the Shirokovsky samples tested and
<DIV></DIV>&gt;registered
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; as a meteorite in another country. We sent a representative to the Girorne
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Meteoritic Fair in Germany where he met people from the same CMET who
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; originally rejected our appeal to have the samples tested. This time, they
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; convinced our representative that it would be patriotic to carry out the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; research and register the meteorite in Russia.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Defining a Meteorite
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Further developments in our quest to have Shirokovsky registered as a
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; meteorite can serve as a precedent for future discussions on the topic
<DIV></DIV>&gt;'what
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; should be considered a meteorite?'.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Historically, the system of identification and registration of meteorites
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; first presumes that a sample is either of terrestrial origin or
<DIV></DIV>&gt;artificial.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; To prevent the Committee on Meteorites from being transformed into the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; mining branch, they quickly sift out the 'rubbish', by searching for
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; specific features defined by a system of identification that follows
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; existing theories of the formation of the universe. Logically, the samples
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; treated most skeptically are those submitted without genealogy, those that
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; have no testimonial evidence of their fall or the point of impact.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; In the case of Shirokovsky, not only is the area of the fall identified,
<DIV></DIV>&gt;but
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the actual point of impact was accurately located in the frozen reservoir.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; During the course of our four search expeditions, an area at the bottom of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the reservoir with a radius of 100m centered beneath the identified point
<DIV></DIV>&gt;of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; impact was literally scrutinized with magnifying glasses and pincers. We
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; found no other stones capable of leaving the iron-nickel traces that were
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; found on the walls of the ice hole where the meteorite entered the
<DIV></DIV>&gt;reservoir
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; in 1956. Nor was anything found by our rivals, the alternative divers'
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; expedition from the city of Sverdlovsk. It is almost certain that what our
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; divers lifted from the reservoir bottom is what fell from the sky, broke
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; through the ice and left the iron nickel traces in 1956, simply because
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; their was nothing else found on the reservoir bottom that could have left
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; such traces.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Testing of Shirokovsky
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Recent testing of Shirokovsky has indicated that Shirokovsky is on the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; terrestrial oxygen isotope fractionation line. Experts of the Kurchatov
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Institute have questioned the purity of this testing because the sample
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; specimen was not properly prepared by means of laser ablation for the mass
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; spectrometry. Before it was tested, the sample underwent thermal, chemical
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; and other influences that may have led to substitution of oxygen in the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; olivine. At this stage, the Saint Petersburgian Scientific Research
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Institute will provide some aid with VSEGEI (noble gases, lead) and GIPCH
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; (oxygen) testing under the direction of the Russian Academy of Science
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Precambrian Institute Research Laboratory of U. A. (Shukulukov and L. K.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Levsky), where the samples are currently being prepared. We expect that
<DIV></DIV>&gt;the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; tests results will show either the shifting of isotopic ratio relative to
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the line of terrestrial rocks or they will ascribe the sample to the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; anomalous group - lunar, Martian, aubrita, etc - that contradicts the
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; homogeneous picture of the origin of the terrestrial rocks.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Radiogenic argon was found in the Shirokovsky specimens, although in
<DIV></DIV>&gt;smaller
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; quantities than expected. We hope that the figures will be more in line
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; after a properly prepared sample is tested at the above-mentioned
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; institutions.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Making a Meteorite
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; When the test results, results from testing conducted on an improperly
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; prepared Shirokovsky specimen, favored a terrestrial origin, some
<DIV></DIV>&gt;speculated
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; that the specimen was an artificially produced 'false meteorite' - similar
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; to a product produced through blast furnace casting in the former USSR.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; In response to this speculation, we turned to the staff of different
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; scientific and metallurgical institutions, questioning the possibility of
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; using existing technologies to create an object with a composition similar
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; to that of Shirokovsky. The metallurgists gave quite an irrefutable
<DIV></DIV>&gt;answer.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Only three ways of forming metal are known:
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 1. forging
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 2. casting
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 3. sintering (powder metallurgy)
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Forging:
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Forging, where metal is heated to a high temperature, then hammered into
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; shape, is obviously out of the question.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Casting
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Casting an object with a composition similar to that of Shirokovsky is
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; possible only under zero gravity conditions, since Archimedean force would
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; instantly eject the lighter minerals to the surface.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sintering (Powder Metallurgy)
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sintering would allow minerals to disperse inside the mould. But no mould
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; could cast a stone with surface protrusions that jut out at opposing
<DIV></DIV>&gt;angles.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; The extraction of the object from the mould would inevitably lead to its
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; destruction. Moreover, the outside cavities of the mould would tend to
<DIV></DIV>&gt;fill
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; with the smaller particles of powder instead of the larger mineral
<DIV></DIV>&gt;crystals.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Shirokovsky has surface protrusions that jut out at opposing angles. These
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; protrusions are filled with larger pieces of olivine and metallic matrix.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; What is Shirokovsky?
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Thus, in summary, Shirokovsky can be described as:
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; "something found at the point of impact of a celestial body and something
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; impossible to produce with methods currently known to science".
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; A. Alexeyevich
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Full Member of the Russian Geographical Society.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Participant of the search expedition for the Ugleuralsky (Shirokovsky)
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; meteorite.
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; _________________________________________________________________
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Received on Thu 12 Jun 2003 12:54:57 PM PDT


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