[meteorite-list] Need help naming new group

From: David Freeman <dfreeman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:22:41 2004
Message-ID: <3EF1C905.1030508_at_fascination.com>

Dear Dr. Grossman, Adam, and List members;

As a growing amateur (and successful hunter)... (and amateur's make the
hobby grow, and the growing hobby makes the dealers and collectors grow,
and dealers and collectors growing make the science grow); I do use
the words: ecrucite, diogenite, howardite, and have been trained since
my first day learning meteorites to become familiar with these terms and
mental pictures of what they relate to in the meteorite world.
The pictures in the Rocks From Space books, and any entry level
publication (Bob Haag's catalogue's, old and new) all have these
"archaic" terms next to the very full color pictures of our glorious
meteorites.
These terms may be old school, and out dated terms but please remember
that if you give a test to 90 percent of the world of meteorite
collectors, these are commonly used terms that are very familiar to the
vast majority of us; the common meteorite person.
At any given large February rock and mineral show where the gods and the
common man among us congregate, these are yet very familiar terms,
these archaic: ecrucite, diogenite, howardite... Science may have
progressed too far.
  
New bath water is fine, let's not loose the baby that got us here.

Before we go to changing too much, maybe the learning tools, ie, the
books that we learn from, need to be all upgraded before we start
renaming everything. I have yet to read my first Meteoritical Bulletin
 and yet I have a new meteorite under classification that will be there
in a year. Please don't alienate the growing amateur, or the average
collector.

Lost in space,
Dave Freeman
IMCA # 3864
As a post note, Bozoites are those of our generation that grew up
watching WGN TV Chicago every day at 5:30 pm and thus that name is
already taken.

Jeff Grossman wrote:

> At 12:57 PM 6/18/2003, Adam Hupe wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> A lot of good suggestions for naming this new group are rolling in
>> and we
>> are pleased with the turn-out. We thought the NomCom had something
>> to do
>> with naming of meteorite groups because many submitted description
>> titles
>> have been changed after NomCom voting when new meteorites were
>> submitted.
>> One example is NWA 1459 which was submitted as an "Olivine Diogenite"
>> and
>> was published as "Diogenite, olivine-rich"...
>>
>> Adam and Greg Hupe
>> The Hupe Collection
>> IMCA 2185
>
>
> The Meteoritical Bulletin is an edited publication. Basically, it is
> up to the Editor, acting on advice from the NomCom and the person
> describing the meteorite, to use whatever classification terms she
> sees fit. In fact, if somebody names these meteorites Bozoites, the
> Editor will still call them by the term she thinks most appropriate.
> I will certainly advise her to avoid new trivial terms unless they
> come into common usage.
>
> I want to emphasize: the names eucrite, diogenite, and howardite are
> 19th Century coinages. They are remnants of the old
> Rose-Tschermak-Brezina classification system, most of which is
> long-dead. They only survive because ancient traditions die hard, and
> until the 1970's there were very few achondrites available for
> systematic classification. It is not reasonable to coin new 19th-C
> style names for things. Science has progressed too far.
>
> Adam Hupe also wrote:
>
>> >If these five were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic
>> Peridotites" >but you cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite
>> types.
>
>
> This is wrong. New types of martian meteorites are now classified as,
> e.g., ALH 84001: "martian orthopyroxenite." Trivial names have also
> not been coined for lunar meteorites: they are classified as "lunar
> basalt," "lunar anorthosite," etc. The names of HED-clan achondrites
> should follow suit. Once we're sure they're from Vesta, they should
> be called "Vesta peridotite" or some such. For now, terms like
> "olivine diogenite" or, a better alternative, "HED-clan peridotite"
> serve to identify both the mineralogy and parent body.
>
> jeff
>
>
>
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jeff Grossman" <jgrossman_at_usgs.gov>
>> To: <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 5:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Need help naming new group
>>
>>
>> > New groups names are not a NomCom issue, although there are people who
>> > think it should be. Group names come into being through
>> consensus. Many
>> > group names have died at birth, never being adopted by anybody
>> other that
>> > the person who wrote the initial publication (e.g., F chondrites, CA
>> > chondrites). Others have caught on and become widely accepted
>> (recently,
>> > R, CH, CK, CR chondrites). Still others remain on the fence (e.g., CB
>> > chondrites versus bencubbinites or just bencubbin-like
>> meteorites). It
>> > takes time.
>> >
>> > My personal opinion is that "olivine diogenite" is a perfectly fine
>> > term. Although it preserves the antiquated, nondescriptive,
>> trivial term
>> > "diogenite," everybody in meteoritics now knows what a diogenite
>> is, and
>> > that it comes from the HED parent body, most likely Vesta. What we
>> don't
>> > need now, in this age where we actually know where meteorites come
>> from,
>> is
>> > more trivial terms. I strongly doubt that any publication that
>> proposes
>> > calling them something else would ever catch on.
>> >
>> > jeff
>> >
>> >
>> > At 10:55 PM 6/17/2003, Adam Hupe wrote:
>> > >Dear List Members,
>> > >
>> > >It is our pleasure to announce NWA 1877, (provisional) the second
>> so-called
>> > >"Olivine Diogenite" in private hands. This makes number five
>> including
>> the
>> > >three Antarctic finds. The significance of it being number five
>> is that
>> it
>> > >now qualifies to be promoted to main group status if approved by the
>> > >Nomenclature Committee. Scientists who are working on it agree
>> that this
>> > >ultra-rare class is suited in every way for a new full-blown group
>> and
>> are
>> > >willing to propose this new group. Since O-Isotopes place this
>> from the
>> > >same parent body as the HED group, naming this new group would be a
>> > >history-making event. A main group has never been added to the HED
>> > >assemblage, only subgroups.
>> > >
>> > >This is not paired with NWA 1459, which was found in Iriqui and only
>> weighed
>> > >49 grams. Weighing in at 312 grams, NWA 1877, (provisional) is
>> the most
>> > >olivine-rich yet found with ~50% of this mineral. The scientists
>> who are
>> > >working on it suggested coming up with a new name for this group
>> since
>> > >Diogenite, by definition, does not accurately describe this type of
>> > >meteorite. The name "Olivine Diogenite" was coined by scientists
>> working
>> on
>> > >the Antarctic finds for lack of a better term at the time. If these
>> five
>> > >were from Earth they would be called "Harzburgitic Peridotites"
>> but you
>> > >cannot use terrestrial terms to name meteorite types. This is
>> where the
>> > >List may be able to help. Scientists suggested that the meteoritic
>> > >community, meaning the List, come up with a name for this group.
>> > >
>> > >We do not know what to call this proposed new group since none of
>> them
>> are
>> > >from witnessed falls. It was suggested that it be named in honor of
>> some
>> > >famous pioneer in the field of meteoritics or some closely related
>> > >discipline. We are open to suggestions and know that List members
>> can be
>> > >very creative. Who knows? you may be able to become a part of
>> history by
>> > >coming up with a suitable name.
>> > >
>> > >In case you have not guessed this will be the weekly rare material
>> > >announcement but with some added flare because it is something anyone
>> could
>> > >get involved in if they wished. If you come up with a suitable
>> name we
>> > >will send you a 1-gram plus specimen free of charge.
>> > >
>> > >Wishing everybody the very best,
>> > >
>> > >Adam and Greg Hupe
>> > >The Hupe Collection
>> > >IMCA 2185
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >______________________________________________
>> > >Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > >Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>> > >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> > Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman
>> > Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society)
>> > US Geological Survey
>> > 954 National Center
>> > Reston, VA 20192, USA
>> > Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
>> > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________
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>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman
> Chair, Meteorite Nomenclature Committee (Meteoritical Society)
> US Geological Survey
> 954 National Center
> Reston, VA 20192, USA
> Phone: (703) 648-6184 fax: (703) 648-6383
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________
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> Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
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>
>
Received on Thu 19 Jun 2003 10:30:29 AM PDT