[meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$

From: mafer <mafer_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:25:39 2004
Message-ID: <000f01c318dd$48cadfc0$6501a8c0_at_vs.shawcable.net>

Hey Ron, watch out for the roc-lizards and roc-scorpians
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Hartman <RNHARTMA_at_mtsac.edu>
To: Tom aka James Knudson <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>; Steve Schoner
<steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>; Bob Martino <martino.6@osu.edu>;
<meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$


> Sounds good to me, Tom. Can I bring my magnetic stick to hunt magnetic
> rabbits?
> Ron :=)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom aka James Knudson" <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>
> To: "Ron Hartman" <RNHARTMA_at_mtsac.edu>; "Steve Schoner"
> <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>; "Bob Martino" <martino.6@osu.edu>;
> <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 6:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$
>
>
> > Hello Ron and list, Ron wrote;
> > "They cannot refuse to let you hike /walk /hunt (animals,
> > not meteorites :=), etc. (according to the info. I saw when last in the
> > area) but the State WILL not give a permit to hunt meteorites"
> >
> > Easy solution, Get a hunting permit and have at it! Rabbit season is
open
> > all year in AZ. It is perfectly legal to hunt with a slingshot in
Arizona
> > for small game. With a sling shot you have an excuse to pick up those
> "heavy
> > little rocks" they make great ammo!!! Anybody want to go hunt rabbits
with
> > me?
> > Thanks, Tom
> > The proudest member of the IMCA 6168
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ron Hartman <RNHARTMA_at_mtsac.edu>
> > To: Steve Schoner <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>; Tom aka James Knudson
> > <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>; Bob Martino <martino.6@osu.edu>;
> > <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$
> >
> >
> > > Not having done so, I am recalling from memory, but I remember having
> been
> > > told that there is such a permission to gather MINERALS on BLM land,
per
> > the
> > > comment below, but that may not apply to meteorites, specifically.
Re:
> > The
> > > crater: the region is divided into square mile sections, like a
> > > checkerboard. For a few miles around the crater, with some minor
> > exception,
> > > the red squares would be owned by Bar-T-Bar/Meteor Crater Enterprises;
> the
> > > black squares by the State of Arizona. The state leases sections for
> ONLY
> > > GRAZING RIGHTS (not mineral rights) to MCE. However, you would need
to
> > > bring along your GPS to know the State land without trespassing on
MCE
> > > land. However, the area is part of a government multiple use
> arrangement
> > > for recreation. They cannot refuse to let you hike /walk /hunt
> (animals,
> > > not meteorites :=), etc. (according to the info. I saw when last in
the
> > > area) but the State WILL not give a permit to hunt meteorites. One
> > > little-known meteorite collector I once knew tried that with initial
> > success
> > > some years ago. He in fact did receive a permit from the State land
> > Office
> > > in Phoenix. When he was seen hunting at the crater, MCE called the
> state
> > > and the permit was immediately revoked.
> > >
> > > In my opinion, it is a good thing that open collecting is not now
> allowed.
> > > You can imagine what would happen if it were. The meteorites that are
> > still
> > > buried have been there for quite awhile. They aren't going to rust
away
> > in
> > > the next few years. Future research from material still "in situ" may
> > want
> > > to be done at some time. It is the responsibility of the owners to
> > preserve
> > > that science. The argument that they are being "saved" by digging
them
> up
> > > doesn't hold up if meteorites are recovered, then sliced up and
allowed
> to
> > > slowly rust away. In spite of preservation techniques, I suspect that
> if
> > we
> > > could look a few hundred years into the future, that many now in
private
> > > collections will have been either lost or destroyed by rusting by
then.
> > The
> > > ones in the ground will still be there. Those that are at risk are
> > already
> > > long gone as shale balls.
> > >
> > > Ron Hartman
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Steve Schoner" <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Tom aka James Knudson" <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>; "Bob
Martino"
> > > <martino.6_at_osu.edu>; <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 8:56 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor $$$$
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Tom aka James Knudson <knudson911_at_frontiernet.net>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Hello Steve and list, I have a paper signed by an
> > > > > AZ. BLM big-wig that
> > > > > states a person can collect 250 pounds a year of
> > > > > meteorites from BLM land
> > > > > and can be traded, given away or kept. You just can
> > > > > not sale any or make a
> > > > > profit in any way.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, Tom
> > > > > The proudest member of the IMCA 6168
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > REALLY !
> > > >
> > > > Well, then, let's all get together and give it a try
> > > > on some select State BLM lands around "Meteor Crater."
> > > >
> > > > Be sure to bring that letter along, so that everyone
> > > > can have a copy of it, because you can bet that Meteor
> > > > Crater Enterprises over at the Crater will certainly
> > > > send their posse out and "arrest" all of us for a
> > > > Meteor Crater style "legal lynching."
> > > >
> > > > But we have to have a force in numbers... Make filling
> > > > the Winslow or Flagstaff jail with protesting
> > > > meteorite hunters worth while for the press. The
> > > > Crater people would have to have the sherrif send out
> > > > an extra large paddy waggon to haul us all off to
> > > > jail.
> > > >
> > > > That would make it an issue worthy of reporting,
> > > > wouldn't it?
> > > >
> > > > HA! HA! hee he...
> > > >
> > > > BTW, could you, send me a copy of that letter? And if
> > > > indeed true, it could turn the tide out there on those
> > > > public lands that are under grazing permits.
> > > >
> > > > Though I am doubful of the ramifcations of the letter,
> > > > due to fickle AZ BLM land policy... Just think of it,
> > > > each of us could walk away with 250 lbs of Canyon
> > > > Diablo meteorites! Meteorites that we can own, or
> > > > trade with others, but not sell.
> > > >
> > > > What a deal that would be.
> > > >
> > > > Steve Schoner
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/meteorite_identification.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Steve Schoner <steve_schoner_at_yahoo.com>
> > > > > To: Bob Martino <martino.6_at_osu.edu>;
> > > > > <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:19 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Re: Barringer Meteor
> > > > > $$$$
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Bob,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No need to apologize, I respect your opinion, and
> > > > > I
> > > > > > know that I can be stubborn on issues that I
> > > > > believe
> > > > > > to be true. And ost of what you say is true. The
> > > > > > Park Service is in dismal straits, and it seems
> > > > > our
> > > > > > illustrious government is inclined to keep it that
> > > > > > way. I worked for the NPS for ten years from 1988
> > > > > to
> > > > > > 1998, so I can relate to what you are saying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But that does not take away the argument that the
> > > > > 1872
> > > > > > Mining Act needs to be repealed or amended so that
> > > > > > current mining claims can be re-examined. There
> > > > > has
> > > > > > been some movement over the years to do that, but
> > > > > > mining interests intervene each and every time it
> > > > > > comes up.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I still believe strongly that Meteor Crater should
> > > > > not
> > > > > > be leased under the provisions of the Mining Act.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > have always had this opinion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I remember the days when I went there when it was
> > > > > a
> > > > > > tourist trap. It still is a tourist trap. They
> > > > > were
> > > > > > in the process of re-modeling the museum when I
> > > > > was
> > > > > > last there. And the tour guide had some great
> > > > > > historical stories relating to the crater, but his
> > > > > > understanding of the geology of the site was
> > > > > > deficient. He said that the meteor was under the
> > > > > > southern rim, and this, Dr. Shoemaker, and Dr.
> > > > > Moulton
> > > > > > proved wrong. And Nininger found the sphereoids
> > > > > to
> > > > > > prove it... that the meteorite was vaporized on
> > > > > > impact. There is no massive meteorite under the
> > > > > > southern rim of the crater.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > With regards to interpretation of meteorites, one
> > > > > > thing has bothered me for years, and this is just
> > > > > one
> > > > > > of many things that bothered me. You might want
> > > > > to
> > > > > > see if they still have a slice of the Richardton
> > > > > > Meteorite that fell in 1918 confused with a slice
> > > > > of
> > > > > > weathered Morland Meteorite in their meteorite
> > > > > display
> > > > > > case. I have told the manager about this display
> > > > > > several times over several years and even e-mailed
> > > > > the
> > > > > > manager about it. Still, the last time I saw it,
> > > > > it
> > > > > > was labeled wrong, with the labels on the wrong
> > > > > > meteorites.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Guess in the manager's estimation, I don't know
> > > > > what I
> > > > > > am talking about.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > All of this aside, I strongly disagree with you
> > > > > > regarding Dr. Nininger's collection of Canyon
> > > > > Diablo
> > > > > > meteorites. In the days that he was there he
> > > > > searched
> > > > > > for meteorites IN BROAD DAYLIGHT for the reason
> > > > > that
> > > > > > the Arizona State Land Department, and maybe even
> > > > > > Meteor Crater managers permitted him to do so. And
> > > > > > they had not denied him permission to take what he
> > > > > > found on state lands outside of the crater
> > > > > property.
> > > > > > What "poacher" would steal in broad daylight right
> > > > > > under the noses of State land, and private
> > > > > managers?
> > > > > > And in 1939 he even used a truck with huge
> > > > > > electromagnets mounted on the back to rake the
> > > > > > northern rim soils for smaller meteorites IN BROAD
> > > > > > DAYLIGHT. And the Barringer's and crater managers
> > > > > knew
> > > > > > that he was there after permission to do so was
> > > > > > granted.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > They knew for years that Dr. Nininger was there
> > > > > > collecting meteorites, and with permission to do
> > > > > so he
> > > > > > continued his research at the museum now ruined
> > > > > near
> > > > > > the current I-40, selling those meteorites to an
> > > > > > interested public. During that time he continued
> > > > > to
> > > > > > make contributions in the field meteor crater
> > > > > science.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, now long after he is gone, the current
> > > > > managers
> > > > > > say that he ACTUALLY STOLE the meteorites?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dr. Nininger never told me that he stole
> > > > > meteorites
> > > > > > from Meteor Crater, or from the State lands
> > > > > > surrounding the crater. They were, according to
> > > > > what
> > > > > > he related to me, obtained with permits and
> > > > > legally.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Certainly un-like the current "poachers" that
> > > > > scamper
> > > > > > around the crater AT NIGHT?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Humm...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would rather believe the story of a man that
> > > > > spent
> > > > > > years searching in daylight, than the stories of
> > > > > those
> > > > > > who never met him and know nothing of the
> > > > > situation as
> > > > > > it actually happened..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As for my project. Yes, I am somewhat bitter about
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > I asked Nininger how I would start to go about
> > > > > it. He
> > > > > > related to me that first I would have to contact
> > > > > the
> > > > > > AZ Bureau of Land Management for a permit to
> > > > > search on
> > > > > > State lands. That is what he did over the years
> > > > > that
> > > > > > he searched the crater. But then he said, I hope
> > > > > that
> > > > > > you have luck at it, for there is some kind of
> > > > > special
> > > > > > arrangement between the folks at Meteor Crater and
> > > > > > BLM.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > He was right.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What a tremendous waste of time and effort,
> > > > > spanning
> > > > > > years of my life when I was much healthier and
> > > > > younger
> > > > > > to do the work. You have no idea the things I had
> > > > > to
> > > > > > agree to even start the project. And yes I am a
> > > > > > "dealer" of meteorites. (All dealers to the MCE
> > > > > are
> > > > > > "poachers" by the way) Try to get over that bias
> > > > > in
> > > > > > their eyes. Even if you bend over backwards to
> > > > > meet
> > > > > > their conditions to be honest, in their viewpoint
> > > > > a
> > > > > > meteorite dealer is still a thief. I have much
> > > > > more
> > > > > > to say on this, but it is much too involved to
> > > > > post
> > > > > > here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And the totality of this issue is really more
> > > > > > complicated than just the Mining Act of 1872, as
> > > > > it
> > > > > > pertains to Meteor Crater proper. It is also the
> > > > > fact
> > > > > > that Arizona State lands are being leased to them
> > > > > > (Meteor Crater Enterprises and Bar-T-Bar Ranch)
> > > > > for
> > > > > > cattle grazing. The mineral rights are not
> > > > > specified,
> > > > > > and at least the last time I checked there was no
> > > > > > provision in the law that all mineral rights go
> > > > > under
> > > > >
> > > > === message truncated ===
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________
> > > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
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> > > >
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Received on Mon 12 May 2003 07:21:26 PM PDT