[meteorite-list] Questions regarding Unclassified meteorite sales

From: Martin Altmann <Altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun Nov 6 13:15:25 2005
Message-ID: <002501c5e2ff$c7cd8540$5a439a54_at_9y6y40j>

Hi Patrick, Darren, Kevin...

I neither would say, that in past it happened, that collectors were
discouraged by anyone to purchase unclassified stones or classified NWAs, it
was rather about to tell, that most collectors (and dealers) hold them not
exactely the same dear as classical finds or even falls and to avoid wrong
expectations (as Darren expressed in his posting) and views.
The issues you mentioned partially lead to the general discussion about
desert finds, including classified stones.

> * False claims of authenticity
For unclassified stuff a minor problem, as a stone offered as unclassified
ranges on the scale of commercial value on the very bottom.
It would make hence no big sense for an offerer to state, that a stone
without find data, that he purchased in Tucson, was purchased in Erfould,
nor could he claim a chondrite to be a more valuable achondrite, as it's
not classified and it would be harmful to his reputation, which for his
business is of crucial importance, as the so called "market" is an
incredibly small petri dish.
That a layman offers a terrestial stone as a meteorite happens regularly,
but not widely, and the offered objects (each week in US-ebay) are easily
recognizable as meteorwrongs (if the photo is vague, the price expectation
and the circumstance, that it was self-found will help). Intentional frauds
e.g. by this florida-coaster or with that Mars stuff, where Senor Divelbiss
rescued the not yet so experienced collectors with his great idea to set up
an auction with a collection of similar pseudos, are scarce and perhaps in
future a field of IMCA-activity, also if non-members are involved.
Another problem may be, that Moroccans, not so specialized in meteorites,
give wrong guesses about stones, they are selling on fairs, as they were
told, that a stone would be of that type. But this is known and no risk, no
fun.
A slightly more urgent problem could be, that persons give wrong find
data/stories with their stones to upgrade them, transplanting a cheap desert
stone into a more pleasent area of the globe or making already classified
stones anonymous again, because that very stone was crancked up so
excessively through the mincer called "ebay", that the prices there went
absurd low (to illustrate, remember Kainsaz going there at 2.5$/g, while
each weathered desert CO3 was selling there at 8-15$/g - hence a certain
temptation...).
But those problems are not inherent in the stones, it's albout honesty of
the people.
Finally remains the dilemma for offerors, whether to classify already known
NWA-material again. We had this issue in extenso on the list. If someone
buys from the same source the same material, from which anotherone took and
had it got classified, what to do? One knows it's the same, but isn't
allowed if
one isn't a graduate petrologist to assign it to the already known number.
To get it classified is expensive and costs time, as the capacities of the
labs couldn't keep pace with the enormous flood of desert finds. The number
and pairing mess would be enlarged, stats about the percentage of the
different types distorted, giving a totally wrong impression to the
collectors, that the real rare stuff is available ad libidum, so that the
miss the best chances or paying to much, as they aren't aware, how many
known pairings do exist, and finally wasting valuable lab time with
redundant analyses.
Perhaps another remark, meanwhile "the market" is so hummm "strange", that
often on ebay unclassified and classified stones are paid with quite the
same money.

Obviously we have some structural problems.

> * Attempts to skirt laws governing ownership

But who knows the actual laws of each individual country?
All we get to know about actual laws, except Canada and Australia, are
rumors and speculations!
And I really doubt, that there do exist in most of those countries, which do
not have territories in the most productive find areas,
laws concerning especially meteorites at all. We don't have to forget, that
on the one hand a meteorite has no practical monetary value at all. Unlike
lprecious stones, gold, rough materials, ores, porc bellies it consists
mainly of components , which you find in your garden or in the curb
stone in front of your door. In fact almost nobody in that countries had an
idea, what meteorites are
and that there are a handful wackos, who are dealing with them. - Captain
Blood, tell what you want,
there ain't no market. Year's ago, in the late eighties, I guess, I read an
estimation, that there should exist 5000-6000 meteorite collectors
worldwide. This figure is hawked again and again since, but even in our days
it is ways to optimistic. Here in Germany, and if I check all national
ebays, I guess, that here is sitting the second largest collectors local
community, there are roughly 100, maximum 200 persons (o.k. in past
Zeitschel's girls weren't as attractive as Haag's...), who you can call
serious collectors. Marcin, how many do we have in Poland? And Francesco in
Italy? Razvan, I know, you're the only one among 30 Mio Romanians....
How many members has this list, the largest in existance? 850-900. How many
dealers do you know worldwide, who earn their living with meteorites
strictly&only?
So we have to keep the right perspective. That meteorite thing is a tiiiiiny
microscopical niche, compared to all other fields of collecting, like
minerals, fossils, plants, stamps, artefacts and so on.
And obviously only in very recent times, those desert countries, where the
unclassified stuff stems from got aware, that meteorites do exist. Aye, of
course with a somewhat funny belief about the selling prices - we frequently
have those newspaper reports here on the list, where meteorites are
estimated to have a value of several thousands per gram or single stones
ranking in the 1Mio$-range.
Let's make a little experiment. Let's throw all known desert numbers
together found in the last 5 years, rent some show halls and exhibit them
there. No time, to figure it out. The NWAs are in their 4000ers, the Dhos in
their 1300ers, let's be generous and say 1000tons were found. If we arrange
it clearly, we fill some shelfs and present them like Bessey's stall in
Munich. Hence we have to rent only two halls, it will be smaller than last
Munich show. Such an amount of material, I'm sure we will get a bulk price,
again let's be very generous, and make 10$/kg --> So we are talking about
10.Mio$ spread over 5 years and over a couple of countries.
Man, what costs the barrel of oil at the moment, how much is pumped out per
annum from soil. What cost a carat of a good diamond, how many tons are
mined only from the Southafrica?
Only because we have all the days meteorites in front of our noses, we don't
have to loose sight, about what for a volume we are talking!
This was the monetary aspect for those, who fear that there is a
multi-billion-$-mafia still at work or seeing a new phase of colonialism in
plundering the strewnfields raising on the horizon.

Independent from the monetary issue would be the legal consideration.
I'm not an attorney, but I have the feeling that the world of law and the
real world have in general only a few points of contact.
Can't imagine, that for smth so peripheral, new and special like a meteorite
will exist individual laws in most countries. I would guess, that in most
cases, meteorites would be subsumed under existing laws handling mining,
fossils, cultural heritage, raw materials, finding, precious stones and so
on. (Even here in Europe, where in the 19th centuries it was a race of
national prestige, which country owns the largest collection and e.g. in
Russia a special law forbidding private posession existed, seem to have
forgotten about the old laws).
I remember that even here in Germany, all the same once a Chladni travelled
here around, they had quite difficulties to find am appropiate legal
treatment for the Neuschwanstein meteorite. Was no mineable resource, was
nothing archeological, was no mushroom or fruit (don't laugh, jurists at
work) - hence they found it to be a natural monument and decided that one
half belongs to the finder, the other to the land's owner. Would it have
found some miles away in another federal estate of Germany, piff, the state
would be the sole owner.
It's in the responsibility of the hunter, to find out, what the actual legal
situation in the country is. With the Morocco stuff we have the problem,
that the find country is already unkown.
Fruitless are discussions about ethics, as long we don't know the laws
regarding meteorite in the involved countries, would be speculation.
I would have expected, that a Society, which subject is exclusevily
Meteoritical, would be able to supply proper informations,
but didn't found any, which does so. Here, we may will have soon remedy,
cause if you study the by-laws of IMCA, there is a passage, which forbids
members to deal with stuff, which was acquired not respecting the laws of
the find region, hence perhaps as a service, we will find a codex soon
there, with the laws of each country regarding meteorites?

Most interesting would be, by the way, the legal status of possession of all
the Antarctic meteorites in the institutes- as far as I know, the Antarctic
belongs to nobody.....


> * Denying science to chance to research newly
> recovered meteorites

Uuuuh, before I'll be a Mexico-Duck and quack to elaborate, (and as I do
have the bird flu)
I'd rather say,
that this point leads us to another general discussion topic:

The dichotomy of:
DEALERS vs. SCIENTISTS

and Darren's funny attitude about pricing to
the (artificial) dichotomy of
COLLECTORS vs DEALERS

So we have topics enough for that week.
Buckleboo




----- Original Message -----
From: "Pat Brown" <radio_ranch_at_yahoo.com>
To: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 7:03 AM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Questions regarding Unclassified meteorite sales


> Hello to all list members,
>
> I have lurked for a while and this is my first post.
>
> Will some of you share your thoughts on why
> unclassified meteorite sales are discouraged?
>
> There are some obvious issues e.g.:
>
> * False claims of authenticity
> * Attempts to skirt laws governing ownership
> * Denying science to chance to research newly
> recovered meteorites
>
> What other issues exist?
>
> I have collected meteorites for about 10 years now and
> have purchased some unclassified NWA meteorites from
> sellers on eBay. The 500 to 1000 gram meteorites are
> selling at attractive prices. Is the practice of
> buying and selling unclassified meteorites harmful to
> the larger scientific and collector community?
>
> Thank you in advance,
> Patrick Brown
> Meteorite Collector
> "it's a scientific lifestyle"
>
>
>
>
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Received on Sun 06 Nov 2005 01:27:43 PM PST