[meteorite-list] Vision Rock: Final Answer?

From: Gary K. Foote <gary_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun May 28 21:46:51 2006
Message-ID: <4479EB8C.17521.2850B3_at_localhost>

Elton,

I've been absent from this discussion as I have been on vacation. I want you to know I
appreciate your information. Just for the record, i do know this is ot a meteorite. I
think I said that before. Yet, it is important to me to disprove it as a meteorite and
the only way I know to do that is to pay for lab time. I'll not be seeking free analysis
from a meteorite lab. I have sent two samples, one to the US geologic Survey and another
to the NH Geologic Survey for study.

I haven't yet sent it to a lab for meteoric exclusion but when I do I will certainly tell
them I do not believe it is such, and simply seek expert confirmation that it is not
such. How do I know it is not a meteorite? It has no sign of a fusion crust. It has a
very rough exterior, unlikely in a meteorite that has been thru atmosphere at meteoric
speed. Also, every bit of it is magnetic and that doesn't happen in stony meteorites.
Only the metal is magnetic, not the stone. That makes the mineral[s] earthly in nature
as far as I'm concerned.

I do wish to say that I believe in a higher power but don't believe that higher power
passes out visions. I believe in evolution and reconcile that with my beliefs with the
idea that nobody can describe the process by which 'man' was created. To me evolution
was that method. 'Poof' goes the wall between creationism and evolution. I say this
simply to demonstrate that I am seeking scientific answers, not sectarian opinions on
what this object is.

In the end I hope to convince the owner that he is better served by seeking a buyer for
his specimen from a standpoint of ethics and honesty. Now I know the owner will not
relinquish his belief in his vision but at the same time he has promised to present it in
the future [once study is done] with both versions of its origin - his vision as well as
the analyses provided by the various experts in their respective fields. That to me is a
step in the right direction. Ethics and honesty. I do believe the owner will be true to
his word in this.

So, will it disappear from eBay? Not likely. But if, after all my efforts, it shows up
without scientific analysis alongside his vision I will personally take the issue up with
eBay. Misrepresentation is misrepresentation and cannot be tolerated.

I thank you Elton, and everyone else who has weighed in on this issue for your thoughts
suppositions, opinions and helpful info. It is in the interests of truth that I have
undertaken this quest. It is also in the interests of helping this man rebuild his
church by identifying what he has so he may get the proper price for it.

Thank you Elton,

Gary

On 24 May 2006 at 23:24, E J wrote:

> You want the truth? You can't handle the truth"... Jack Nicholson in "A
> Few Good Men"
>
> Geeeezzzzze This started out as a fight I had no dog in; now it is
> so beyond worth dealing with, it is a Dog I have no fight left in. Next
> time I speak up tell me to remain /in stfu/.
>
> I posted lengthy replies regarding the Vision Rock with specifics--
> why,what, and where, underpinned my statements with verifiable
> information. So this talk about trying to squash scientific inquiry is
> rubbish. It is clear to me that what I wrote wasn't read anyway. I have
> been chided for things which I didn't do and vice versa. And let me
> clarify, It wasn't so much the issue of meteorite lab time as it was
> about shooting down one's personal credibility by sending a obvious
> meteorwrong off to a lab and becoming another statistic in their eyes of
> the meteorite experts that don't know Jack.
>
> It is hard to chop lengthy details into sound bites when one is
> answering complicated questions. Even harder to communicate technical
> details when the audience is not sure where to begin nor what questions
> to ask. What the Vision Rock is "specifically or technically" isn't an
> easy answer. And the owner would not likely understand anyway. It is
> fairly easy to get in the ball park of identification but I am not going
> to tell anyone go to the Palermo Mine or the St Lawrence County Mining
> district of New York or to look down in the creek bed. I gave anyone
> that read it hints enough. Few here likely know that many minerals are
> only discernible at the molecular level. You look at their sample and
> tell them it is calcite and they argue that you are wrong because they
> bought if from a dealer that said it is ferro-mangnoancalcite. There
> are perhaps 20-30 minerals in what is called the Kaolin-Serpentine group
> and one can only reliably identify 4 - 8 of them by sight alone. There
> are 250 minerals from New Hampshire so that should narrow one's search
> (:-) Gary is trying to identify a rock and that is not the same as a
> mineral. So now add another 8-12 rock types to evaluate and you can
> start to see the scope of effort to answer "what is this exactly"? What
> is the difference between marble, hornfels, pegmatite, gneiss, and
> basalt? In some places?.... as little as about 30 feet.
>
> I think I was the only poster that attempted to answer Gary's technical
> issues. I believe I have been a strong supporter for him,
> understanding he is in a dilemma . We are differing in approach, but to
> me, support doesn't mean being a yes man. I believe he has undertaken
> his own quest to understand and his first meteorite identification case
> is complicated beyond most everyone's experience. In the old days list
> the members were not bickering about TKWs and pairings but were generous
> with their technical knowledge. Sorry I am used to the old list where
> folks actually addressed complicated answers. I know I come across as
> pedantical but I am not. There are already those rolling on the floor
> laughing and writing rebuttals without finishing what I've said.
>
> This whole Vision Quest affair is ultimately moot for no amount of
> technical proof is going to resolve this situation because the owner
> is seeking a specific answer and not "the truth"and any answer other
> than a Martian meteorite challenges his vision. (Do the affairs of
> Boggy Creek or Frass Martian Grasshoppers stir anyone's memory?) I
> believe the owner is pressing him( Gary) to prove it isn't a
> meteorite. I believe Gary's willingness to tackle this problem has put
> him in a no-win situation. Time will tell one way or another.
>
> So let me back off everything I have said about the possible
> identification of this rock as I don't want to restrict anyone's right
> to conduct an investigation in a manner of their choosing. Maybe is far
> more rewarding to exude enthusiasm and dream dreams than to deal with
> the realities and probabilities of Ockhum's Razor.( Yes, I don't follow
> minimum message length theory in practice). If the Vision Rock owner is
> happy with the identification of a hematite nodule, magnetite schist, or
> a sheared off piece of sub continental-shelf sea-floor--that is what is
> most important, right? But the next round of Ebay auctions might read
> "Frands..und Viures... Let me share with you another defeat for the
> Priests of Baal...G*d sent me an unbeliever meteorite expert and not
> even he could prove me wrong! He tried to trick me with words but I
> said Get Behind me Satan and sent him packing!! What G*d hath said let
> no mortal man dispute!"
>
> On a side note, why did no one address the the question about knowing
> why this can't be a Martian Meteorite? I have a good idea why no one
> spoke up but it is only a close guess and you know the cliche "close is
> only good for horseshoes and hand grenades". Very few seem interested
> in science anymore--too frequently it is an inconvenient truth that gets
> in the way of our poker game so we really aren't interested. We prefer
> to argue esoteric "pin-head" things like who has the largest weight of
> NWA XXX rather then understand the reason NWAYYY has reset certain
> theories about early solar system formation. We don't give a rat's
> behind about the science we only want to own a piece for bragging
> rights. We are a sound bite society.
>
> I've lost track of the exact number of meteor-suspects I have reviewed,
> but I have more than a pocket full . I begin all my spiels with " You
> will most likely not like what I tell you--even before I see the rock, I
> want you to know I'll be honest with you. If you do have a rock I can't
> exclude from being a meteorite. I'll tell you where to go next." I
> point out features which are not found in meteorites and what the
> feature would look like if it were a meteorite. ( I mentioned
> meteorites in my last post which shared some common traits and before
> that mentioned why the composition of the Vision Rock shared some
> mineral elements with meteorites,tyvm). By-in-large, most of the owners
> appreciate a specific technical answer as to what their object is , and
> why it isn't a star rock. Then there are those owners where bursting
> their dream bubble is a psyche shattering experience --I don't
> exaggerate. One gent comes to mind that has an egg-sized basalt with
> vesicles lined with gold paint and glitter. No matter what I said, he
> bought it from a jeweler and "the jeweler is famous must know meteorites
> better than I because I couldn't explain how the gold was only in the
> holes and not all over"..DUH paint brush? He never spoke to me again.
> He was unable to deal with the fact he paid several hundred dollars for
> a doctored rock, that wasn't even a meteorite. For him it was easier to
> cope by continuing to call it a meteorite. Ever meet any of those
> folks? Frankly, I'd rather handle rattlesnake (I was going to say
> scorpion it might be misconstrued and I am off that fight too) than
> take my chances with another meteor wrong owner.
>
> Elton
>
>
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Received on Sun 28 May 2006 06:27:24 PM PDT