[meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater

From: Jerry <grf2_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:21:07 -0500
Message-ID: <C739D05DC5F24AEC8CC7FC47E9CFD93E_at_Notebook>

Doug, Francis, Chris and List,
Some might remember my post on this subject a year or so ago.
I addressed the possibility of actually getting real micrometeorites using
similar techniques [magnets]
I referred to a leading Astronomy popularizer, Jack Horkhimer. whose PBS
late night shows always ended with the phrase " and remember Keep Looking
Up".
At the time I was rudely awakened to reality by the List, and introduced to
"Noise"
But Francis, the joy of the experience for me and my school kids was real
and has remained vivid today. So the persuit is enough to provide lasting
entusiasm and lifelong interest in the subject.
I have a question.
Would the Noise material contain Ni?
If the pollutants are from manufacturing in say China [not much in the USA
anymore], would the processing of the material reduce the metal to Fe?
If that were the case a simple test for Ni might be a step toward separatng
vast amounts of noise from more potentially meteoric stuff.
Jerry Flaherty
----- Original Message -----
From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
To: "Francis Graham" <francisgraham at rocketmail.com>;
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater


> Hello Francis, Chris, Larry and other hip, enthusiastic educators or
> Listees,
>
> Thanks again for the interesting subject, and also to Chris who got a late
> but great reply in there...
>
> Francis' has hit upon a subject on classroom study of the micrometeorite
> question is really a way to get students close and personal with
> meteorites in the most delightful way - a memorable educational
> experience. I know everyone has special needs for their particular
> science class curriculum, but I wanted to add a P.S. with some links just
> suggesting you take a look at what has been done by Lepidopterists to
> stimulate scientific minds in North America in their field. The study of
> butterflies, skippers and moths is really not a popular subject in
> schools; Unfortunately, even keeping hard-core scientific groups related
> to it alive is sometimes a challenge. In a stark contrast, The Monarch
> Watch Program, between Canada, the U.S., and Mexico has proved to be an
> engine for young minds and is popular year after year; a very memorable
> experience for aspiring student biologists. Not to mention the
> appreciation and culture it leaves all participants for the subject
> matter.
>
> I'm very biased in applying this to your "problem" (in a scientific sense,
> of course) since my other love is as an amateur enthusiast of
> Lepidopterology, and have had personal contact with the leaders, but have
> no part in organizing, this remarkable success. Scientists alone needed
> help if they could ever draw any conclusions, and this was needed at a
> local level. Who would have thought 15 years later the program is
> stronger than ever, self-funded and still making news even in the local
> papers in Mexico, with young scientist delighting in the opportunity to be
> essential contributers to science and develop their scientific curiosity
> in biology by direct participation and contact with the natural sciences?
> Two thousand educational organizations are involved and it is estimated
> that 100,000 students annually have the joy of participation, doing
> science, and having exciting field expeditions.
>
> The thought that bulk analyses could be made of hypothesized meteoritic
> materials sampled over greatly varying geography but standard protocol
> seems to put statistics in our favor of separating the noise from the
> micrometeorites that form a portion of the fallout.
>
> OK, sorry for maybe going overboard with a second post - here are some
> pertinent links you are cordially invited to click:
>
> The classic: http://www.monarchwatch.org/tagmig/tag.htm
> More really interesting stuff IMO:
> http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/vector.htm
> http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/hiso.htm
> http://www.monarchwatch.org/class/studproj/mass.htm
>
> Best wishes and Great Health,
> Doug
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Francis Graham" <francisgraham at rocketmail.com>
> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
>
>
>> Dear Doug, Larry and List,
>> Thanks for the response from you both and from Sr
>> Gallo in Venezuela! Upon further reflection, I am not
>> sure how much information can be gained from
>> micrometeorite lunar dust grains...the problem is that
>> you have only one or two mineral grains...maybe three.
>> But what you lack in macroscopic petrological context,
>> you might gain in microscopic studies involving
>> isotopes, studies of polymorphic forms, and odd
>> minerals (e.g. Hapkeite) etc.
>> But then there is the whole problem of
>> identification of lunar micrometeorites, not an easy
>> one to solve, especially, as Larry says (and I agree)
>> they are likely to be rare.
>> Hmmmm. I like your suggestion that this would be an
>> interesting project to critically examine, in
>> conjunction with an educational project.
>>
>> Francis Graham
>>
>>
>> --- mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Francis,
>>>
>>> I was thinking exactly the same angle already posted
>>> by Larry, so let me
>>> just comment on your question:
>>>
>>> "And at what size level does a meteorite cease to be
>>> of interest?"
>>>
>>> by offering the opinion:
>>> At the level it ceases to contain any information
>>> attributable to
>>> meteoroids, meteorites or their parent bodies.
>>> Since this will change with
>>> time and technology, the question may be time and
>>> resource dependent.
>>> However, your inquiry about whether any of these
>>> particles have been
>>> analyzed (or imo, capable of being analyzed at
>>> present), stands.
>>>
>>> It would seem to me, that a very good project for
>>> schools would be to
>>> organize a collection protocol for educators in the
>>> style of the superb
>>> International Monarch Butterfly tagging program (or
>>> also like SETI on home
>>> computers), to collect large amounts of this
>>> material, set up a factorial
>>> experimental design to test certain hypothesis and
>>> bulk sample differences,
>>> by appropriately submitting these for testing.
>>>
>>> I would imagine that this is an experiment that
>>> neither the ESA nor NASA
>>> have the resources nor mandate to do, yet could lead
>>> to profound insight on
>>> the nature of cometary particles on Earth and make a
>>> very good contribution
>>> to science by enthusiastic young scientsits to be.
>>> Or I darkly suspect,
>>> more likely an application of the scientific method
>>> to disprove a popularly
>>> held theory theory regarding most of the materials
>>> recovered in this way -
>>> either way, a great exercise for teaching meteorites
>>> and science in general
>>> with a problem, methodology, and a participative
>>> attitude.
>>>
>>> Surely there is some work on this out there, but
>>> sample size and scope
>>> restrictions make this an ideal educator's project
>>> looking only for someone
>>> like you to organize. Just need a partner in the
>>> scientific community
>>> willing to lead in the intrumental analyses and
>>> sample preparation.
>>>
>>> Best Wishes and Good Health,
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <lebofsky at lpl.arizona.edu>
>>> To: "Francis Graham" <francisgraham at rocketmail.com>
>>> Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 8:49 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Brownlees in Rainwater
>>>
>>>
>>> > Hello Francis:
>>> >
>>> > I do not pretend to be an expert on this subject,
>>> but the simple answer to
>>> > at least oneof your questions is that there is no
>>> indication that any of
>>> > the micrometeorites (and thus what you might get
>>> in rainwater) is
>>> > planetary or lunar. The ones collected in the
>>> upper atmosphere are either
>>> > from asteroids or comets. It may be that some very
>>> small percentage is
>>> > planetary/lunar, but these might be so rare as to
>>> be lost in the noise.
>>> >
>>> > Larry Lebofsky
>>> >
>>> > On Tue, November 20, 2007 7:31 am, Francis Graham
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Dear List
>>> >> I have a question which has been vexing me for
>>> some
>>> >> years. I was introduced to a method of collection
>>> of
>>> >> micrometeorites by Larry Megahan some years ago,
>>> which consisted of
>>> >> collecting rainwater and then wrapping a powerful
>>> rare Earth magnet in
>>> >> Saran (TM)wrap. Placing
>>> >> the Saran wrap on a glass plate, and examining it
>>> under the microscope,
>>> >> one
>>> >> could see many ferromagnetic particles. Some were
>>> rounded and ablated and
>>> >> it was a strong guess that these were
>>> micrometeorites. I have had some
>>> >> students try this project and indeed some of the
>>> particles are
>>> >> microspheroids of ablated iron, similar to so
>>> called "Brownlee particles"
>>> >> colected in the stratosphere. But I have reason
>>> to be suspicious,
>>> >> especially if the collection is near a former
>>> industrial or mining site.
>>> >> MY
>>> >> QUESTION IS, has this method, widely circulated
>>> >> in presecondary teaching circles, ever been
>>> critically evaluated by
>>> >> electron microprobe analysis, X-Ray fluorescence
>>> or some such? And at
>>> >> what
>>> >> size level does a meteorite cease to be of
>>> interest? It would naively
>>> >> seem,
>>> >> that although a very very very tiny percentage of
>>> meteorites are lunars
>>> >> or
>>> >> Martians, if a way to rapidly identify
>>> micrometeorites
>>> >> can be done, a lot more information on Mars and
>>> the Moon could be
>>> >> obtained,
>>> >> simply because there are so many micrometeorites.
>>> This would include
>>> >> collection in the stratosphere as Brownlee did,
>>> maybe piggybacked on
>>> >> surveillance aircraft. But one question at a
>>> time.
>>> >> Francis Graham
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>>
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>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
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>>
>>
>>
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Received on Tue 20 Nov 2007 04:21:07 PM PST