[meteorite-list] Response to Randall, Michael

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:22:45 -0700
Message-ID: <93aaac890710031222w15ad63c0vff261cc8e25a5ca_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello "XXX," Randall, etc,

I'm going to take the time to go through this bit-by-bit.

>I reviewed the report sent in by Mr. Farmer today and then I asked my
Peruvian wife to her to call my friends in Desaguadero to find out
what the situation is. I read Mike's field report and he had mentioned
that they started to pump out the water in the crater and I was
curious to know if they found the meteorite.

Just curious? Based on your previous emails, I would personally
believe that an attempt such as his, coming from a person who -so-
exploits the natives of wherever meteorites happen to fall by paying
the finders drastically -more- than you paid them for samples
($0.50/g for samples that you say you're looking to sell for $30-60/g)
would have caused you to become at the very least furious.
- Who wouldn't be, with all of that lost profit?

>This is the story as my wife is relating to me after she talked to my
friend. Major Victor Anaya Barrientos of the Peruvian National Police
located in the town of Desaguadero.
Apparently, Mike and his associated went to the town of Desaguadero
and used their method of posting flyers and soliciting citizens to
sell them meteorites.They told people that the meteorite pieces were
very very valuable and they would pay good money for any samples. I
guess they made offers on a per gram basis that sent these people into
a frenzy.

And they didn't do this with your offer. I wonder why...not....

>They never went to the municipality and asked for any kind
of permission.

Please send a copy of whatever Peruvian law states that meteorites are
the property of the municipality, as opposed to that of the land
owner. It's true, the pieces that Michael bought from the police, he
paid the police for, but in that case, the police should simply
forward the money to its rightful owners. Peruvian law is the only
one to blame in this scenario.
Furthermore, I take it you have written consent of the municipality to
collect meteoric specimens? Just wondering...whether or not it is
actually required is a matter of Peruvian national law, an area in
which I lack expertise, but it appears to me that you probably do as
well.

>And they never made any contacts with scientists or
researchers in Peru.

These scientists have proven themselves to be almost as intelligent as
you with regard to meteoritics and the recovery of such a large buried
mass. I would personally deem it worth contacting at least some
officials beforehand, but to be perfectly frank, I am 100% sure that,
using my highschool physics qualifications as well as knowledge
gleaned on the subject of meteoritics over my past nine years of
collecting, I know more genrally about meteorites and impact mechanics
than they do. I'm not talking about the real science of it -
macroscopy, etc, but with regard to recovering samples and college
level physics, I am certain that I am more proficient than they. I
could very well be wrong, but, well, prove it.

>Local citizens swarmed to the site to look for
pieces and almost caused a riot.

"almost caused a riot." This statement is clearly open to
interpretation and should be looked at closely. "almost caused a
riot" implies that there was no actual riot and the degree to which
the event "almost" became a riot is something that I think you have
exaggerated to accomplish your own ends - of making Michael Farmer
look bad. The only thing that this tells us, then, is that there was
some disturbance due to the amount of money that Michael offered for
material, which in turn shows everyone that what you offered must have
been a pittance in comparison.

>Apparently, the Spanish speaking
person with Mike told the people of the community that there was a big
meteorite in the hole and it was worth alot of money. This is the
equivalent of starting a revolution. The people gathered at the
municipality demanding that the government extract the meteorite.

Good - maybe now something will be done about it...those scientists of
which you speak, if they've even taken the time to visit the site yet,
haven't done a single thing about saving/preserving what is likely the
largest stony meteorite ever to fall in one piece. If the common
people get worked up about selling it to whoever wants to buy it, I
say go ahead - at least the science won't be lost.
It's true, the crater is of value in itself, but surely some Peruvian
scientists have gone down there by now and taken some relatively
shallow cores to cross-section the crater so that a conclusion can be
drawn as to whether the hole really is an impact crater or if it's
simply an impact-pit. Or would you/they prefer that the meteorite rot
for weeks before they get around to it...?

>The mayor of the city complied under duress, and started to pump out the
water. Meanwhile, news of this revolution went from the local to the
national level.

Hell, at least something is being done to prevent the wasting of such
a historic specimen...and you say the national government got wind of
this historic event because of this? Hot damn, someone on the
national level finally started caring - amazing...

>Local people were upset as they expected the city to find this million
dollar meteorite that Mike and his friends told them.

The city, if no one else was coming to do such a thing, should have
taken responsibility and done it for, if nothing else, the supposed
million dollars that they could get for such a meteorite (I'm sure
they could use a little more cash than whatever you paid them for
samples...). I'm sure such funds could work wonders for the locals...

>This caused so
many problems with the municipality that the Minister of Interior at
the national level has issued an order to close the site declaring
that the site government property.

What sort of problems? You can say this, but without giving any
examples, I'm rather curious as to what sort of problems, if any, this
could possibly cause.

>The site now has a 24 hour police
guard and everyone is forbidden from entering the site. Mike never
realized the consequences of his actions.

Consequence1 = Crater is preserved, as no one can enter it or destroy
it further, a goal that you have been advocating all along.
Consequence2 = No one like you can rake through the dirt for more
fragments. This is probably what pisses you off, as to date, you've
simply advocated the complete restriction of other people (except for
these ethereal 'Peruvian scientists') from the crater, aside from
yourself.

>The reason he and his
friends were harassed was the police believed that they were
"trafficantes" or traffickers. The police were entirely correct in
their assessment, and gave a message to Mike that they wanted him and
his friends to leave.

I wonder who told them that....Randall.......

>The damage he caused might be irreparable.

Yes - neither him, nor yourself might never be allowed to go near the
crater again. Nevermind the fact that you were destroying the crater
yourself with all of your tromping around in it, looking for samples
to, as you said, sell on ebay.

>I intend on visiting the
site in a short time to see what the situation is

-With regards to your being allowed to go back and look for more fragments?

> and report back to
the list. I will try to work with my colleagues in Peru and Bolivia,
the Universities to organize an effort to extract the meteorite as a
National Treasure for the people of Peru.

I still find it odd that so far they've shown no effort in doing this...

>I believe this meteorite can
be still be saved and the crater preserved. But now that the national
government is involved, all my work at preservation might have been in
vain.

So you do believe that the meteorite will rot if left in the hole now,
eh? You appeared to doubt that initially when Michael said it to the
list.......

>Right now, I am furious with Mike and his actions.

But of course - his actions have now restricted persons such as
yourself from sifting through the crater for fragments.

>No respect for
people.

I wouldn't say that - you ripped them off and he offered them a much
more fair price for the useless, albeit interesting, rocks that
they've picked up over the past few days. I believe that his giving
them a reasonable offer shows that he respects them much more than one
such as you, who, I've estimated based on your 4kg recovered material
and the price at which you were looking to sell, stand to make
$180,000 from the material that you say you paid $2,000 for. I
personally doubt that you paid the owner anything at all, and probably
used the guise of science to rob them of their finds, but that's just
me. Maybe you have a receipt...

>I am also deeply offended when he called the Mayor and other
Peruvian scientists stupid.

If such a meteorite fell in this country (USA), it would be exhumed in
a matter of days at most, and scientists would most likely get the run
of the crater. Just have a look at Meteor Crater - it's true, back in
the 1800's and into the 1900's, it was exploited for commercial
reasons, but the research was done in a professional manner that
actually gave a great deal of scientific information to the public as
a whole; and after it was ascertained that there was no profitable
mass at the bottom of the hole, all commercial exploitation was
stopped, save that of the museum on the rim.
The same principle applies to all European countries of which I can
think, as well as most non-third-world countries. I'm sorry, but at
the moment, I can't say the same for Peru.

>Here is a man with a high school education
calling college educated professionals stupid.

College doesn't make a man smart, nor does it provide decent
capabilities for reasoning, as you've shown the six-hundred or so
members of this list. College-educated, hypocritical idiots such as
yourself are one of the major reasons that this country is in the mire
in which it finds itself now...(coughBushcough).

>He called Desaguadero
a "craphole". Yes, it is a very poor city high in the Andes and is no
way plush as the area of Tuscon he lives in.

I believe he described people peeing into the crater. As such, his
description is, for the most part, accurate.

>He went in with his
greedy little plan and hurt alot of people, while never trying to
understand the culture or the people.

Whereas you go in, understand them, rip them off, and leave without
making them feel bad. In the end, when you leave, they have a little
money, and when he leaves, they have a hell of a lot more. They're
probably happier having him there...every culture seems to understand
money, if nothing else.

>Just criticism and a ton of
negativity toward everything.

You're one to talk.

>The Peruvians are good, decent,
hard-working, and religious people and I happy and proud to be
associated with them. Besides the damage he caused in Desaguadero, I
believe he tarnished the image of meteoritic community.

Touche. Hard-working, good, and decent are all perspective-oriented.
Hard-working compared to whom? Good and decent compared to whom? You
supposedly paid a few of them $2,000 for material you say you aim to
sell on ebay for what I figure to be $180,000.
Compared to you, I have no doubt that they are all of the above.
Now, with regard to religion, well, I personally view that as a
negative thing, as it merely implies willing ignorance in the face of
science, so...eh. I suppose it might provide their society with a
moral structure that would otherwise be lacking, but in general, avid
religious fanaticism simply connotes the general worldly and
scientific ignorance of a culture.

>It really makes me think, What is the definition of a "professional"
meteorite hunter?

Someone who lives off the proceeds they gain from said
ventures...pretty self-explanatory.

>I take responsibility for everything I say in this post and I am
expecting criticism. After I read Mike's field report, I sent him an
e-mail. I won't post it to the list, but it is available to anyone
that wants to read it.

I've seen the emails that you've sent to him and desire to see no more.

>I am now appealing to the meteoritic community of scientists to help
me at a national level so our government can contact and assist the
government of Peru in extracting this meteorite. Every meteorite has
the potiential to harbor organic compounds or fossilized remains and
should be studied. Give me leads or referrals is all I ask.

As another list member suggested, I believe that you can probably sell
the ~4kg of material that you supposedly paid $2,000 for, and said
that you would look to sell on ebay, at between $30 and $60/g
($120,000-$240,000 total).
Good luck with your exploitation of those decent and hard-working Peruvians.

Jason


On 10/3/07, Martin Altmann <altmann at meteorite-martin.de> wrote:
> Mr. Randall,
>
> I think I'm not the only one on that list here, who has the feeling, that
> your posts are highly inconsistent.
>
> First we could read from you, that you're not sure about, that there is a
> main mass some down below in the soil at all and that the crater/pit should
> be preserved.
> We read, that the poor locals should profit from the finds made there, that
> all fragments collected and sold by locals without agreement of the land
> owner are stolen goods and how immoral it is to sell such goods on ebay.
> And that the best solution would be, that the meteorites and the crater
> would be property of the Peruvian state as national treasure + that the
> Peruvian scientists would be experienced enough to handle the case.
>
> In the same mails and later we read, that you not only have bought some
> material at a not directly generous price, but that you bought it from the
> local authorities, who had confiscated the material from people, who
> collected it illegally (according your own words).
> To give money to authorities to obtain secured material - hence either
> property of state or in custody of the state is a simple act of corruption.
>
> And contradicting your own moral standards you started immediately to fence
> those stones via ebay and to dealers like Matteo.
>
> After on the list was discussed, that there is a probability that the main
> mass could exist below the crater and Farmer/Karl/Ward travelled to the
> site, you showed an immediate eagerness to lead an initiative to excavate
> it.
>
> Now, when they entered the scene offering the locals - remember your own
> mails, who are poor and should profit from that situation - a much higher
> and adequate price for the material, which they collected than you did with
> your (seen from the collectors point of view) ridiculous price,
> you seem not to be delighted.
>
> And furthermore you condemn, that they sensitized the population about the
> importance of that case, in giving them a more adequate imagination that the
> possible main mass is more important than the crater and that it has a high
> value, which lead to the exact result, which you always wanted from the
> beginning on, but which you weren't able to accomplish,
> that the importance and the basic necessity to act was finally recognized on
> a national level. Instead to be happy about that, and also that the area is
> now protected by police from further "looting", you call it now an
> "irreparable damage".
>
> And with all respect, the questions about meteorites, you posed here on the
> list, give not directly an impression, that you're an expert in meteoritics,
> neither do I see, why you should be entitled for the " all your work at
> preservation" and not rather the Peruvian scientists, who - at least you
> expressed it so in one of your early mails - are in your opinion
> sufficiently trained to investigate that fall.
>
> So even if we let that strange issues from the private mails Farmer
> published here aside,
> the observer will see a remarkable bigotry in your emails and will most
> probably come to the conclusion, that your motivation isn't morale but
> profane greed.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
>
> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Dr.
> Richard Daniels
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 3. Oktober 2007 11:46
> An: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Betreff: [meteorite-list] Dr. Richard Daniels is a pseudonym for
> RandallGregory, my way of not asking people to post for me
>
> XXX,
>
> This is critical, I'll try to post but if it doesn't make it could you
> send it to someone that will post. I know you want to stay out of the
> middle.
>
> I reviewed the report sent in by Mr. Farmer today and then I asked my
> Peruvian wife to her to call my friends in Desaguadero to find out
> what the situation is. I read Mike's field report and he had mentioned
> that they started to pump out the water in the crater and I was
> curious to know if they found the meteorite.
>
> This is the story as my wife is relating to me after she talked to my
> friend. Major Victor Anaya Barrientos of the Peruvian National Police
> located in the town of Desaguadero.
>
> Apparently, Mike and his associated went to the town of Desaguadero
> and used their method of posting flyers and soliciting citizens to
> sell them meteorites.They told people that the meteorite pieces were
> very very valuable and they would pay good money for any samples. I
> guess they made offers on a per gram basis that sent these people into
> a frenzy. They never went to the municipality and asked for any kind
> of permission. And they never made any contacts with scientists or
> researchers in Peru. Local citizens swarmed to the site to look for
> pieces and almost caused a riot. Apparently, the Spanish speaking
> person with Mike told the people of the community that there was a big
> meteorite in the hole and it was worth alot of money. This is the
> equivalent of starting a revolution. The people gathered at the
> municipality demanding that the government extract the meteorite. The
> mayor of the city complied under duress, and started to pump out the
> water. Meanwhile, news of this revolution went from the local to the
> national level.
>
> Local people were upset as they expected the city to find this million
> dollar meteorite that Mike and his friends told them. This caused so
> many problems with the municipality that the Minister of Interior at
> the national level has issued an order to close the site declaring
> that the site government property. The site now has a 24 hour police
> guard and everyone is forbidden from entering the site. Mike never
> realized the consequences of his actions. The reason he and his
> friends were harassed was the police believed that they were
> "trafficantes" or traffickers. The police were entirely correct in
> their assessment, and gave a message to Mike that they wanted him and
> his friends to leave.
>
> The damage he caused might be irreparable. I intend on visiting the
> site in a short time to see what the situation is and report back to
> the list. I will try to work with my colleagues in Peru and Bolivia,
> the Universities to organize an effort to extract the meteorite as a
> National Treasure for the people of Peru. I believe this meteorite can
> be still be saved and the crater preserved. But now that the national
> government is involved, all my work at preservation might have been in
> vain.
>
> Right now, I am furious with Mike and his actions. No respect for
> people. I am also deeply offended when he called the Mayor and other
> Peruvian scientists stupid. Here is a man with a high school education
> calling college educated professionals stupid. He called Desaguadero
> a "craphole". Yes, it is a very poor city high in the Andes and is no
> way plush as the area of Tuscon he lives in. He went in with his
> greedy little plan and hurt alot of people, while never trying to
> understand the culture or the people. Just criticism and a ton of
> negativity toward everything. The Peruvians are good, decent,
> hard-working, and religious people and I happy and proud to be
> associated with them. Besides the damage he caused in Desaguadero, I
> believe he tarnished the image of meteoritic community.
>
> It really makes me think, What is the definition of a "professional"
> meteorite hunter?
>
> I take responsibility for everything I say in this post and I am
> expecting criticism. After I read Mike's field report, I sent him an
> e-mail. I won't post it to the list, but it is available to anyone
> that wants to read it.
>
> I am now appealing to the meteoritic community of scientists to help
> me at a national level so our government can contact and assist the
> government of Peru in extracting this meteorite. Every meteorite has
> the potiential to harbor organic compounds or fossilized remains and
> should be studied. Give me leads or referrals is all I ask.
>
>
> Randall
> ______________________________________________
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>
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Received on Wed 03 Oct 2007 03:22:45 PM PDT