[meteorite-list] Shawnee tradition, hermeneutic condition

From: dmouat <dmouat_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2007 08:25:24 -0700
Message-ID: <470B9D64.4090100_at_dri.edu>

That first sentence (if it is, in fact, a sentence) is definitely the
longest (albeit obfuscatory) I've "read" all month.

Hohohoba

Thaddeus Besedin wrote:

>The Shawnee and others are the ONLY sources of
>Pleistocene cultural information, possibly preserved
>in accounts of the cosmogony of late-coming
>Paleoindian populations (as also can be expected of
>the mythopoesis of indigenous Northern Asian
>populations, e.g. early Jomon Proto-Ainu
>people(~16,000 BP - ~2,450 BP), certainly surviving
>relatively intact through the cold snap of the Younger
>Dryas, although not necessarily witnessing an impact -
>unless by hemispheric diffuse supernova ejecta), that
>a study, constrained entirely to an output of
>speculative-associative quasi-syntheses with all
>caveats understood, can draw from. Unverifiability is
>not itself completely at odds with scientific
>practice, and correspondence of paleoclimatological
>reconstructions, geological evidence, and
>archaeological evidence can parallel mythos and, to a
>minimal degree, offer a possible translation of
>metaphorical-allegorical narrative. Thus, scholars
>with the aspirations of an E.P. Grondine are limited
>to a view of their subject from distances beyond mere
>time (semantic indeterminability/incommensurability
>apply - a transmission from crystallized indigenous
>accounts, to eurocentric 19th c. ethnographers to
>E.P.G.). Archaeolgy is much easier, but certainly
>mute.
>
>Just don't call Hibben a rigorous and ethical
>scientist.
>
>We must, to arrive at the closest degee of recorded
>experience, decolonialize our view of vanquished
>non-european cultural traditions, but what we have
>left (Eurocentric ethnographies)is the best that we
>have left. What do the current Shawnee think of the
>works of white ethnographers?
>One last thing - I found this article at the PNAS
>site, although another list member may have beat me to
>it:
>"Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years
>ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions
>and the Younger Dryas cooling"
>http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/0706977104v1.pdf
>[full-color images, graphs, etc. in PDF format]
>
>--- "E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Dirk wrote:
>>
>>List and Ed,
>>
>>
>>
>>>Continuing discussion follows EPG`s final question.
>>>
>>>
>>----------------------------------------------------
>>"E.P. Grondine" <epgrondine at yahoo.com> wrote:"...
>>
>>"Do you really want to stand by such a display of a
>>lack of intelligence and sense, or do you wish to
>>reconsider that statement?"
>>
>>
>>
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
>
>>>Yes, I stand by my statements of fact.
>>>
>>>
>>They were no statements of fact, Dirk.
>>
>>You made assertions concerning Native American
>>traditions which were both factually incorrect, as
>>well as displayed an amazing ignorance of the field
>>of
>>anthropology. You compared millenium old traditions
>>with a 175 year old forgery.
>>
>>
>>
>>>And yes, you finally admitted that your facts are
>>>
>>>
>>indeed "your" belief, thus not science.
>>
>>And how did you get that? My facts are one thing,
>>my
>>beliefs another.
>>
>>I gave the allegories of several Native American
>>religions in "Man and Impact in the Americas", as
>>well
>>as giving their oral histories there - and mainly I
>>gave their histories. Those are "facts" about those
>>peoples in and of themselves.
>>
>>By the way, the Maya had written writing, and made
>>contemporaneous records of events.
>>
>>What I "believe" is something else. I think that
>>there
>>are Christians who are scientists, Jews who are
>>scientists, Moslems who are scientists, Budhists who
>>are scientists. Can't one hold a Native American
>>belief system and be a scientist? Or can science
>>only
>>practiced by atheists and English Deists?
>>
>>Or perhaps history and anthropology are not
>>sciences?
>>
>>
>>
>>>Belief posed as fact or science is poor
>>>
>>>
>>scholarship,
>>
>>
>>>as your book and excerpts clearly display.
>>>
>>>
>>So is misrepresenting someone else's work, and
>>misrepresenting their use of materials.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Also, lack of any primary research (nothing
>>>
>>>
>>remotely
>>demonstrating proof of any Holocene impact)
>>
>>Except for the sudden population losses and cultural
>>discontinuities...
>>
>>But then displays of physical evidence are often
>>invisible to some people. So watch the National
>>Geographic Channel program on TV.
>>
>>As a final point, the day after my final warning to
>>Darryl on Williamette, I ran into a gentleman whose
>>uncle had bulldozed a mound. Three days later he
>>was
>>found dead of heart attack drooped over a toilet
>>into
>>which he had been vomiting "stuff that looked like
>>s***".
>>
>>While that's a fact, it is only my belief that no
>>good
>>will come to Darryl or anyone from dealing
>>Williamette
>>- if he or anyone else wants to join the dataset, go
>>on ahead. Beyond this warning, like the others, I
>>will
>>simply look on in "dismay".
>>
>>E.P. Grondine
>>Man and Impact in the Americas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Received on Tue 09 Oct 2007 11:25:24 AM PDT