[meteorite-list] Assorted legal quagmires of hunting meteorites on US soil? (more)

From: Michael Gilmer <michael_w_gilmer_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:36:49 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <816602.31610.qm_at_web58402.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

Hi Svend, everyone who replied, and listees,

I did some more digging on the subject (no pun intended) after our brief exchange in an effort to find out
what I could. I ran across another brief discussion on this same subject, from the archives of this list back
in 2005.

http://www.mail-archive.com/meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com/msg34283.html

In the post linked above, the post author quotes some applicable text from the US governments laws
concerning land use in BLM areas. Since it is public domain, I will re-quote it here :

-------------------------
[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 43, Volume 2]
[Revised as of October 1, 2004]
>From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 43CFR8365.1-5]

[Page 917]

                    TITLE 43--PUBLIC LANDS: INTERIOR

    CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR

PART 8360_VISITOR SERVICES--Table of Contents

                      Subpart 8365_Rules of Conduct

Sec. 8365.1-5 Property and resources.

    (a) On all public lands, unless otherwise authorized, no person
shall;
    (1) Willfully deface, disturb, remove or destroy any personal
property, or structures, or any scientific, cultural, archaeological or
historic resource, natural object or area;
    (2) Willfully deface, remove or destroy plants or their parts, soil, rocks
or minerals, or cave resources, except as permitted under
paragraph (b) or (c) of this paragraph; or
    (3) Use on the public lands explosive, motorized or mechanical
devices, except metal detectors, to aid in the collection of specimens
permitted under paragraph (b) or (c) of this paragraph.
    (b) Except on developed recreation sites and areas, or where
otherwise prohibited and posted, it is permissible to collect from the
public lands reasonable amounts of the following for noncommercial
purposes:
    (1) Commonly available renewable resources such as flowers, berries, nuts,
seeds, cones and leaves;
    (2) Nonrenewable resources such as rocks, mineral specimens, common
invertebrate fossils and semiprecious gemstones;
    (3) Petrified wood as provided under subpart 3622 of this title;
    (4) Mineral materials as provided under subpart 3604; and
    (5) Forest products for use in campfires on the public lands. Other
collection of forest products shall be in accordance with the provisions of
Group 5500 of this title.
    (c) The collection of renewable or nonrenewable resources from the
public lands for sale or barter to commercial dealers may be done only
after obtaining a contract or permit from an authorized officer in
accordance with part 3600 or 5400 of this chapter.

----------------------------------------------------

I am not a student or practitioner of law, so I can only read this in a layman's context. Perhaps a list
member who has law experience in this area can clarify things here.

As I read it, it would say to me : that meteorite prospecting for "commercial" purposes is verboten. How
the word "commercial" is legally defined in this context will be a key point to consider when determining
the legality of meteorite hunting in a given BLM area of the US. To me, going out to a BLM area and
harvesting meteorites strictly to sell for profit might be construed as against the rules. But if one is a
collector and meteorite-geek (read: aspiring wannabe meteoriticist), and one has the intention of keeping
any found meteorites for a personal collection (and having them classified for study) then this would not
be considered "commercial" in nature, and would therefore (within reason) be considered legal. Again,
maybe someone fluent in law could correct and clarify here. But it would seem that harvesting any
material, (be it flowers, nuts, berries, minerals, or meteorites) without commercial intent/results, and
for personal use, would be legal. (except in certain "recreation areas" as noted) Here is the key part of
the above quoted text :

------------------------

"...(b) Except on developed recreation sites and areas, or where
otherwise prohibited and posted, it is permissible to collect from the
public lands reasonable amounts of the following for noncommercial
purposes:
    (1) Commonly available renewable resources such as flowers, berries, nuts,
seeds, cones and leaves;
    (2) Nonrenewable resources such as rocks, mineral specimens, common
invertebrate fossils and semiprecious gemstones;
    (3) Petrified wood as provided under subpart 3622 of this title;
    (4) Mineral materials as provided under subpart 3604; and..."

-------------------------------

Of course, this discussion is pointless if the hunter is operating on private property with permission from
the property owner. I have plans on doing some meteorite hunting in the near future and I will have
the means to travel extended distances and boondock in remote areas to carry out my hunting. I will always
obtain permission from the property owner before trying to hunt, if the location is private property. But
if the land is federal, then I want to make sure I am on the right side of the law. I don't want to get myself
(or my wife) a criminal record for trying to find and classify meteorites. Would my intention be personal
or commercial is a tough question to answer. Let's suppose I got really *really* lucky and found an
undiscovered strewnfield peppered with otherwise-common chondrites and I had permission (or an
arrangement) to collect them up, as many as I could carry. I would take as many as I could carry (and sweet-talk my wife into carrying also!) and I would have the find classified. After classification, if the
find was a common type with no new scientific significance, then I would keep the main mass in my
private collection and donate several nice large individuals to various institutions (where appropriate),
and sell some of the smaller pieces to collectors to make a little bit of coin to pay expenses. If the find
turned out to be a rare type, or very significant (like the first lunar on US mainland soil), then I would
donate the entire mass to appropriate institution for scientific study with the caveat that I be allowed to
keep a small portion of the mass - a nice endcut or moderately-sized slice. Now, having exposed my
intentions as a soon-to-be amateur meteorite-geek running around looking for space rocks, would my
hunting activities be considered "personal" or "commercial" ...?

I ask all of these questions because I am in the final stages of converting our shortbus into a boondocking
RV. It's going to have 260watts of solar panels (minimum, perhaps more), 2kw true sinewave inverter,
no less than 4 AGM deep cycle batteries, a/c, fridge (propane), stove/oven (propane), hot water (propane),
toliet, shower, CB, cellular and wireless internet, GPS, 2 laptops, and enough water tanks to last at least 45 days in a remote area without leaving anything behind. (large blackwater tank, large freshwater tank) - I
say all of this to illustrate that this is going to happen soon (within months), so I am not just going through
idle daydreams. So I am eager for some fresh talk on this subject that will clear me up on this subject,
because Google is of little help and it always points back to this group.

My main motive is stargazing from the darkest sites possible and visual astronomy is my main passion.
But while I am out under the darkest skies, I may also find myself in areas that are good for hunting
meteorites. I have every intention of hunting if the opportunity presents itself, but I want these
activities to be fully legal. To that extent I will likely have an annual federal lands pass, but I also want
to know if there are other permits or paperwork that I can acquire through proper channels to obtain
permission to hunt meteorites on federal lands. (or state lands)

Any feedback to enlighten this unranked amateur would be greatly appreciated.

Regards and clear skies,

MikeG

.........................................................
Michael Gilmer (Louisiana, USA)
Member of the Meteoritical Society.
Member of the Bayou Region Stargazers Network.
Websites - http://www.galactic-stone.com and http://www.glassthrower.com
MySpace - http://www.myspace.com/fine_meteorites_4_sale
..........................................................



--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Meteorite-Recon.com <info at niger-meteorite-recon.de> wrote:

> From: Meteorite-Recon.com <info at niger-meteorite-recon.de>
> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Newbie Meteorite Hunter Question - For the Vets,Pros and Finder-Extraordinaires.
> To: michael_w_gilmer at yahoo.com
> Date: Monday, October 27, 2008, 1:13 AM
> Dear Mike,
>
> thank you for your kind words on my website. Much
> appreciated.
>
> Although I am not an expert in US federal law I may
> recommend you contact Dave Gheesling from the Georgia
> Meteorite Association. Many of the members of this club do
> hunting in the US and are familiar with the law aspect of
> hunting in the US. They are a bunch of easy going fellows
> and most helpful in every regard. You may contact Dave at
> info at fallingrocks.com
>
> cheers
>
> Svend
>
>
>
> Hi Ladies, Gentlemen, and assorted fair listoids!
>
> I have a couple of burning questions for the veteran
> meteorite hunters who go
> out into the field.
>
> First, the setup :
>
> I was doing a bit of meteorite web-surfing today and I
> ended up on Svend Buhl's
> website. His articles and
> photos that document his expeditions are fascinating to
> read. Reading them,
> got me daydreaming about
> doing some meteorite hunting myself. Since the wife and I
> are only months away
> from hitting the road
> in our RV, I plan on doing some meteorite hunting while we
> are out boondocking
> in remote locations.
>
> Any meteorite hunting I do will be on US or Canadian soil,
> since we don't plan
> on doing any international
> travel.
>
> So, now my burning questions :
>
> 1) What are the US federal laws regarding finding and
> removing meteorites from
> federally-administered
> lands? What about state and national parks? Are Bureau of
> Land Management
> (BLM) areas any
> different from state and national parks in regarding to
> meteorite hunting.
>
> 2) Suppose I am out stargazing in the middle of nowhere,
> like out in Death
> Valley away from roads and
> civilization. And then suppose I get lucky and find a
> meteorite on land that I
> determine is state or
> federally-owned. What is my next step? What do I do? Can
> I remove the
> meteorite, after documenting
> it in-situ properly? And then where do I take it so it can
> be added to science
> without getting myself
> arrested and/or fined?
>
> 3) Suppose I find a meteorite located on remote land that
> is owned by some
> large holding company or
> corporation? Let's say that I find a meteorite on
> property owned by one of the
> big natural gas companies.
> What do I do then? Do I document it and then contact the
> company that owns the
> land? Then what?
> Do I just surrender it to them, or do we work out some kind
> of deal where I can
> donate it and get a slice
> or endcut for my trouble?
>
> 4) Is there any kind of pass or permit that I can acquire
> from the states or
> federal government that will
> allow me to keep meteorites (or minerals) that I find on
> state/federal land?
>
> 5) Do any of these rules vary for different types of finds?
> - i.e., minerals,
> rocks, fossils, relics, precious
> stones/metals, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> MikeG
>
>




      
Received on Tue 28 Oct 2008 07:36:49 PM PDT