[meteorite-list] How about a thread to discuss hunting ethics - west

From: MeteorHntr at aol.com <MeteorHntr_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 00:04:03 EDT
Message-ID: <c0d.4e0df495.3706e4b3_at_aol.com>

Jason and List,

Let me add:

If anyone wants to go to West and find meteorites on their own they should
try and hope they find their's at the $12/g you found yours at. And then if
they (or anyone else that has found some) want, they can sell theirs for less
than what I am selling mine for!

That is the supply side of the supply and demand equation at work.

But what if everyone else that found some won't want to sell theirs lower
than what I am offering mine at? As I think is generally the case right now.
Then either people will have to pay what we are asking, or sales won't be
made.

Fine. Life goes on. People will buy other things instead.

Again, if anyone out there wants to sell some West real cheap, please let me
know off list!

Now, if others would want to sell cheaper, I then could choose to lower my
prices to compete in the market place, or I could hold my prices and wait for
such a finder to sell out of their inventory, then the future customers would
have to come to me if they want one of mine at my prices.

Or I could get a TV show to air featuring me, that would create more general
interest and demand and drive new customers to the market in general and to
me specifically, people that would want to buy one of my finds at my prices.
 

I could also wax eloquent here on the list and maybe entice some people to
go ahead and buy one of my rocks at my asking prices, where before they might
not have done so. ;-)

Again, all supply and demand forces at work.

And to be fair, you and your opinion ALSO plays a role here. If you think
my prices are "clinically insane" as you state, you are free to make your case
and try to influence the people controlling the demand side of things as
well.

Making statements about how cheap Park Forest or Leedey is in comparison,
might help some people decided not to buy West with their money and instead
invest in those other ones that you think are better values at this time. Cool.
 

But that begs a question: Is West really over-valued? Or maybe Park Forest
and Leedey are under-valued?

Or maybe, while West is not so special scientifically, maybe it has a
"historical" perspective to it, that Park Forest and Leedey have not (yet)
acquired? There was a unified chorus of hunters and dealers stating that it was
hard to find meteorites at West. You are one of the lone voices saying it was
easy for you to find yours, and yet you are one of many people who did in fact
find some, that are also not willing to sell any of your finds at ANY price,
much less at my "clinically insane" prices.

OK, so you and some other "collectors" found your and you are keeping a
tighter grip on them than I am!

If you really want these to sell for less, you should put yours up for sale
at $12/g and help move the values down. But you (and a lot of others) don't
want to do that do you?

Hummm... I wonder why people have been willing to pay my prices for the
last month or so???

I haven't paid close attention to what others have been selling theirs for,
maybe I am too high. Heck, maybe my prices are too low? I feel they are
fair. But I am open for some alteration in my thinking. But I refuse to let my
hours in the field and my actual costs determine my prices, because there
have been MANY months in my last 17 years of hunting that I have found nothing,
and there was no "meteorite welfare" program to pay me when I worked just as
hard with no results.

I'm not complaining that I don't have tenure at a university that pays me no
matter how little I do, or that I don't get unemployment when the snow is 3
foot deep outside.

Again, I am an entrepreneur not an employee.

But I digress. Back to the point at hand...

Maybe no one has adequately romanced to all the new collectors driving the
market, why Park Forest and Leedey are such great values right now compared to
West. Understand that many current collectors were not yet collecting in
2003 when Park Forest fell nor back in 1947 when Leedey fell.

Note: I did notice that Adam Hupe made the comparison with his new
diogenite. Kudos to Adam for making a great marketing observation, that in
comparison, his rock is a bargain. Maybe we will see the prices of all other
meteorites going up soon? Maybe the West fall's "rising tide" has just lifted all
the ships in the harbor?

Of course, you would hate to see that. I understand.

Another point, I am not sure how up to the minute I am on the details, but I
understood that the high bid on the Etter's Main Mass West stone was at
$30,000. If that holds up for a sale, that would be $16.67 per gram. If it was
cut into slices, that would run the cost up to $22 per gram. (My cutter just
informed me privately that my losses were at 24% for the cutting).

If the buyers are paying that as a field price, then what is it worth
retail? In slices, they would probably hope to make 50% to 100% mark up I would
think. So why does that make my full slices at $37.50 so "clinically insane?"
  And, there is no guarantee that the Main Mass would get sliced up. Maybe
my slices will be the only big ones ever available? Then might $37.50 be a
bargain?

And I don't need to remind you that a 3 gram oriented 100% crusted stone,
found before the rains really should be worth more per gram than a 1,800 gram
whole stone (even though it is the current main mass found before the rains as
well).

As I warned, this could get deep.

Steve Arnold
#1, Arkansas





In a message dated 4/2/2009 9:12:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
MeteorHntr at aol.com writes:
Hello Jason,

I have a feeling this is going to get deep.

You are a collector that likes to buy things as cheap as you can, intending
to never sell your collection ever, and as such, your only concern is to
get
as much good stuff as cheap as you can. You don't care at all what your
collection might be worth in dollar figures now or at anytime in the future.

I on the other hand am a dealer, that doesn't collect, and as such I like
to
sell things so that I can make as much profit as I can. Let me point out
that selling a few specimens at a high price and not selling many of the
remaining specimens in my inventory usually is not a clear definition of
making the
most possible. Neither is selling all I have in 24 hours at a low price
just to get the most cash quickly.

For both of us to agree on the forthcoming issues is going to be hard, if
not impossible. So my goal is not going to be to try to change your mind.
 I
will be happy to simply present my challege to your comment that your
specimens only "Cost" you $12/g compared to the "clinically insane" prices
you
suggest $50 to $100/g is that are being charged by me and others.

First off, my prices have ranges from a base of $35/g up to $105/g.

Here is my publicly presented table of values:

Base Price $35/g
Found BEFORE THE RAIN +$15/g
Under 5 +$20/g
Under 10 +$15/g
Under 20 +$10/g
Under 30 +$5/g
100% crusted +$10/g
Oriented +$25/g

So a 35g stone, that is not completed crusted, not oriented, found after
the
rains, I would value that at: $35/g x 35g = $1,225

Also, a 3g 100% crusted and oriented stone, found before the rains would be
valued by me at $105/g x 3g = $315

My full slices of the large stone I have been selling at $37.50/g. That is
after close to 19% saw losses on the cut portion and costs of having it cut
on a wire saw.

Now, when I set those prices it was early in the game, but to be honest, I
think it is still a good price structure that takes quality into the
equation.

This is where I differ from many others, and where I differ from you,
Jason.
I feel the cost of acquiring meteorites has NO bearing on their values at
all. Or at least it shouldn't.

I think Supply and Demand should have bearing on the values.

Now, if you don't want to sell your finds, no matter how
easy/hard/cheap/costly they were to for you to obtain, then that plays into
the supply factor.

I acquired, personally and with the help of some of my friends 78 specimens
so far. I, on the other hand, am willing to sell what I have. So that too
adds to the supply factor.

What about the demand side?

You are correct that much of the demand has been satisfied with people
going
to West and finding specimens themselves. I have one customer that has
taken 6 trips from the Dallas area to hunt at West, not finding anything,
so they
came to me and paid my retail prices for some.

There are previous collectors who have purchased from me as well as a
prominent Texas University collection as well as purchases from the
Smithsonian
from me at my retail prices. There have also been local Texans that
haven't
purchased a meteorite before this that have bought from me. Geoff Notkin
has
published a story about the event that has generated some sales for me as
well.

Geoff and I are going to be on a nationwide TV show of our own in a month
on
the Science Channel, that will generate tens of thousands if not more
visitors to various different web sites featuring some of my West specimens
for
sale. Considering that this show very well might rerun over 100 times in
the
U.S. not including any other showings elsewhere on the globe, the demand
side of
the equation is, to say the least, is in flux right now.

Future stories in nationwide periodicals will only help build demand.

In fact, we only need a teeny tiny fraction of one percent of the viewers
of
the TV show to come to one of our sites, and from those visitors, we only
need a teeny tiny fraction of 1% to want a West meteorite or a part slice
of
one of my West specimens, and I will sell out. I expect I will sell out at
my
prices, and that is why I have set them there and that I am keeping them
there.

In fact, if anyone has some extra West specimens you would like to sell,
contact me off list as I might want to be a buyer, especially if the demand
for
them spikes as it could in the next month or so and I sell out of what
relatively little I have left.

Also, I hunted for 27 days straight, not for only a week. Again, not that
it matters, because it could have taken me 1 day or 5,000 days to find my
bounty, it still does not change the value of the rocks, they are worth
what they
are worth irrespective of what it takes me to find them. Just as your
finds
are not for sale no matter how many or how few you found.

Also, because of some complicated details, of which I won't go into here, I
don't own all 78 specimens 100%. Some of my profit from the sales goes to
others and it is not all for me to keep. Again, this doesn't matter
either.

A one ounce gold nugget is still worth $1,000 no matter who finds it or how
long it takes for them to find it.

Now, the challenge comes when collector-dealers assign personal values to
the rocks based on what they have into them. They are perfectly free to
participate and influence the supply AND demand factors at the same time if
they
want by doing that.

If someone, left unnamed, went to a fall site in Georgia and found a single
 
10 gram stone, would they be able to justify to the world that $6,000 in
legal bills on top of all their other expenses would justify a $800/g price?

No.

Now, THEY as collectors might value it at $800/g as that is what it cost
them, but would anyone else? Probably not. So if they valued it and
priced it
at $800/g, it would basically be off the market, and it would stay in their
personal collection.

Jason, you and anyone that wants a copy of my West inventory list, that
includes the prices of the first 69 specimens I have sold AND not sold, you
can
do the math on what has been made by me so far. Understand that most of my
inventory comes not from my personal efforts, but also the efforts of 12
other
people that I share ownership with, some who have put in over 10 man days
at
the site.

Again, that doesn't matter. If it took 5,000 people 100 man hours each to
find what I have, it still would not change the value of what I have. That
is
for the marketplace to decide, not my personal man hours invested to decide.

Also, the fact that it has been 6 years since I have hunted a fresh
strewnfield (Park Forest) do I get to count all those hours of waiting for
a new fall
to calculate into the value of the rocks? Nope. It doesn't matter.

As stated before, my goal isn't to change your mind. And I am sure I
haven't. I don't look at this from a socialist point of view but from a
capitalist
point of view. I am not entitled to get paid just because I spent money
and
time looking, but rather I am entitled to get paid on what I find AND what
I
am able to market, based on what the marketplace is willing to pay.

I am an entrepreneur not a government employee.

That is my story, and I am sticking to it.

Steve Arnold
Arkansas



In a message dated 4/2/2009 7:46:09 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
meteoritekid at gmail.com writes:
Steve,

> Remind us all what weights you found and how much the trip cost you and
your
> dad, and the cost of the time your dad had to invest in lost Medical
Doctor
> wages to find what you guys found? OK, leave out of the formula what
your
> dad's time is worth, that is none of our business. Why don't you just
figure
> your time invested as being worth $15/hour, for the total cost.

4.2g, 6.2g plus a 0.2g chip, 175.4g, and 2.4g.

- A total weight about on par with what I saw other people had found
in a week or so of hunting about a month ago, when there were more
stones being found. True, our weights aren't typical, but I can only
ascribe that to the fact that 1) I'm good at seeing smaller stones,
and that 2) we spent some time farther down the strewn-field, hoping
to come across places people hadn't looked.

Lost doctor's wages? Peter had that time scheduled as time off for my
spring break as of several months ago. Nothing was cancelled or
moved, his month had a standard number of hours.

But how much did you lose in wages? This is really relevant to my
point down below...kind of a side note here.

> Now, recalculate what your cost per gram would have been if you didn't
find
> your big rock, as few hunters were as lucky as you were in finding such
a
big
> rock.

Other hunters generally found more meteorites in the 10-100g range,
though the average, from what I've read, was between ~20g and ~40g.
The average weight of the stones we found was 47g, not counting the
chip as a separate stone, which is only slightly above average, so
your point is kind of moot. Yes we found one big one, but, on
average, our finds were normal.

> Also, break down what it cost YOU for your finds per gram and break down
> what price per gram your dad paid for all of HIS grammage of rocks he
found, if
> you would for us?

It was both of us, that was the haul. I used the total cost of the
trip for the pair of us and the total 'grammage' of our finds in my
calculation.

> By the way, how much are you willing to sell some of your specimens for?
> Would you sell them for double your cost, for a not so "clinically
insane"
> price of say maybe $24/g? At that price, I might be a buyer.

We're collectors, not dealers - you know that.

But you're asking a question which raises some interesting issues.
While the initial story of "no one has stones they're willing to sell"
has passed, many hunters and collectors already went and found their
own stones. And while a collector who didn't go might be sitting
there saying 'crap, no one's selling,' I think it might also be
interesting to note that demand should be seriously down for a fall
that was accessible to most american collectors who were willing to
take the time to go and find their own stone.
Many of the people who would have bought from dealers have merely gone
and found their own, and the people who didn't...well, it's a new
fall, an L6, and it's really nothing special in terms of appearance or
science. Of course, it looks like a new fall, which usually retail
for, $10-30ish per gram, Park Forest raising the bar there. Even
historic falls usually go for $10-15/g.
In fact, I believe I can recall a nice 1/2 end cut of Leedey you
personally sold on ebay a few months back for a little less than $10
per gram.

At the same time, I find it odd that you, who walked away with over
2kg of material, think it prudent to charge $65/g, give or take.
That's $120,000. Not bad for a few week's worth of meteorite hunting,
especially if your costs were in the $100,000 range. Our trip wound
up costing us around $2,000, because we booked our flights the night
before. And since the flights took up the vast majority of that,
well, it makes things interesting. I've done some numbers. Had we
stayed a full week extra and found the same amount of meteorites (that
we had found in the previous *five* days), it would have cost us about
$500-600 more, and the price per gram of our finds would have come
down to about $7/g.
But you came away with 2kg. If you spent the full amount that we did
for the two of us, on yourself only, you paid $1/g. If you spent
$4,000, you spent $2/g. If you somehow managed to spend $10,000 on
your trip, well - you would only need to sell 150 grams of material at
your price of $65/g to cover your costs.
You've asked some pretty 'off' questions, so here are a few of my own
- how much of your stock have you sold, and how much money have you
made?

Regards,
Jason
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Received on Fri 03 Apr 2009 12:04:03 AM PDT