[meteorite-list] Kem Kem

From: Brian Cox <searchingforfun_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 11:08:25 -0500
Message-ID: <88463B7863A04585A1360C41237D37B8_at_user6e6e286533>

Hello Zelmir,

Thank you very much for adding more information and history to the
discussion of Kem Kem, I appreciate your input.

Thanks again and have a great day!

Brian

IMCA# 6387
searchingforfun is my ebay User Id

----- Original Message -----
From: <meteorite-list-request at meteoritecentral.com>
To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2009 11:00 AM
Subject: Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 71, Issue 32


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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Kem-Kem was never the generic for NWA
> (Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr)
> 2. uRaman data on submitted NWA achondrite (Gary Fujihara)
> 3. GA meteorite event info (star_wars_collector at yahoo.com)
> 4. Re: uRaman data on submitted NWA achondrite (Greg Stanley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 12:09:47 +0200
> From: Zelimir.Gabelica at uha.fr
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Kem-Kem was never the generic for NWA
> To: Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov>
> Cc: Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Message-ID: <20090814120947.hnuc70z0cjpwo0s8 at w3mail.univ-mulhouse.fr>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; DelSp="Yes";
> format="flowed"
>
> Hi List,
>
> To bring a little more confusion to the "Kem-Kem issue", here is
> another story.
>
> It deals with a meteorite found in South Morocco in 1998 (31?7'N /
> 5?11'W), thus at a time the generic NWA designation did not exist.
>
> That one stone weighing 1088 g was found by Michel Franco and, after
> analysis, the remaining mass of 942.5 g of that L6 was offered for
> sale (if I remember well at the Ste Marie-aux-Mines mineral show in
> 1999, where I purchased it).
>
> Michel told me that although fully analyzed at Open University, it had
> not yet a name but that he proposed "Kem Kem"....
>
> I don't know whether it was the first time that such name was proposed
> but Michel was very confident it will be accepted by the Nom. Com. so,
> in the meantime, I catalogued it in my collection using "Kem-Mem" as
> provisional name.
>
> Months or even years later, Michel told me that it eventually received
> another "generic" name, thus "NWA 052" (the NWA nomenclature just
> appeared in the Bulletins).
> I then changed the name but added "Kem-Lem" as SYNONYM.
>
> If you go to the Met Bull database, you will see that they now mention
> "Kem-Kem" as ORIGIN or PSEUDONYM for NWA 052, which seemed logical.
>
> Now after the debate we had these days and the clearings brought by
> Jeff, it is obvious that for my NWA 052, "Kem-Kem" is the origin, not
> a synonym nor pseudo.
>
> (I note that the same mention "origin or pseudonym: "Kem-Kem" is
> mentioned for NWA 753 (R3.9) found years after and this might also
> probably be the case for some other NWA's (I didn't check), which is
> in line with the whole issue cleared by Jeff.
>
> I will (just personally) retain "Kem-Kem" as synonym of my NWA 052 for
> "historical purposes", supposing this was the first NWA oringinating
> from the vast Kem-Kem region (something I am far from being sure - I
> did not check).
>
> I wish to thank once again Jeff for his statements, that are of real
> importance.
>
> My best,
>
> Zelimir
>
> PS: if anybody is interested, I can provide a list giving all the
> synonyms of the meteorites sitting in my collection, should this be of
> some help or general interest for someone.
>
>
>
> Jeff Grossman <jgrossman at usgs.gov> a ??crit??:
>
>> The Kem Kem meteorites from Casper were a trigger for the NomCom
>> approving the NWA designation, which was my coinage in January 2000.
>> But to really understand the history, you need to go back a few
>> years earlier, to El Hammami (aka Hamada du Draa), which was the
>> first case for which the NomCom became aware that meteorites were
>> being transported and sold in this region. With this history, plus
>> a series of inquiries from other dealers about the Kem Kem
>> meteorites, compounded by our inability to learn many details about
>> those meteorites from Casper, we needed to take action of some kind.
>> We decided on a generic term, Northwest Africa, that could be
>> applied as a "tracking" label to all stones, even ones that had not
>> been classified, so that individual meteorites would not be divided
>> and sold under multiple names. We also had no ability to
>> investigate multiple vague or anonymous claims about meteorite
>> provenance in the region. Thus it was decided that all of these
>> meteorites would be named NWA, even those that had been classified.
>> I'm not sure what ever happened to the Kem Kems that triggered the
>> whole thing. Since I don't think Casper ever numbered them, there
>> were no synonyms to publish, assuming they eventually became NWAs.
>>
>> jeff
>>
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> At 01:02 AM 8/10/2009, Jason Utas wrote:
>>> Dirk, Brian, All,
>>> This came up on the list a while back; from what I understood, Casper
>>> sold those as well as a number of other stones under that name around
>>> that time, and only classified one stone, before grouping a number of
>>> similar-looking meteorites together under that name (I believe the
>>> mentality was that of the meteorite-world pior to the NWA rush, where
>>> not every piece had to be classified to verify its composition). And
>>> while not every piece does have to be classified in many cases, this,
>>> I believe, was a situation in which things were not made certain. I
>>> never got the catalog at the time, bit I do recall there being some
>>> consternation as meteorites were being misclassified/misnamed.
>>> Hence the confusion, as the name applies to a number of late 1990's
>>> NWA meteorites which came out of the area via Casper. I might only
>>> call it a generic name at this point because it is a name that applies
>>> to a number of petrographically distinct meteorites. Single name,
>>> unknown number of meteorites. I don't know if it quite fits the
>>> definition of the word "generic," but if it doesn't, it's not far off.
>>> Regards,
>>> Jason
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 9:52 PM, drtanuki<drtanuki at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Brian and List,
>>>> Brian your are incorrect in your history lesson.
>>>> Michael Casper announced in his December 1999 catalogue that "a
>>>> new find out of Morocco- Kem-Kem" was "Found in August, 1999.
>>>> Stone. Classification pending. Kem Kem, Dahara, Morocco".
>>>> Casper`s catalogue lists:
>>>> 22.4g _at_ $44.80;
>>>> 26.9g_at_ $53.80
>>>> 31.5g_at_ $63.00
>>>> 33.5g_at_ $67.00
>>>> 41.0g_at_ $82.00
>>>> 46.8g_at_ $93.60
>>>> 53.2g_at_ $106.40
>>>> 58.6g_at_ $117.20
>>>> 67.4g_at_ $134.80
>>>> 70.0g_at_ $140.00
>>>> 83.1g_at_ $166.20
>>>> 114.9g_at_ $229.80
>>>> 153.6g_at_ $307.20
>>>>
>>>> In the same catalogue, he (Casper) has a multi-kilo piece
>>>> photographed, which I purchased. Kem-Kem was NOT a catch-all term
>>>> for the meteorites of NWA (Moroc/Algeria) at the time, as you wrote.
>>>>
>>>> So please do not confuse the messy history of the NWAs by
>>>> INCORRECTLY calling Kem-Kem the orginal generic name before NWAs.
>>>>
>>>> I was in Morocco in December 2000- January 2001 for six weeks and
>>>> at Kem-Kem prior/during the sale of NWA482 in the year of the
>>>> planetary alignment and eclipse... there were UK-Euro-hippies by
>>>> the busloads for the huge festival and arrested development.
>>>> The only great "hunter" that I ran into while I was there was Dean
>>>> Bessey in his Fiat at Merzouga (he dismounted his for shade);
>>>> prior to Bessey Specks perhaps not?
>>>>
>>>> Missed seeing Mike Farmer, Strope and others; but, I did spot a
>>>> mad German or Austrian at the petrol stop during the heat of the
>>>> day. Also missed the Great Habibi!
>>>>
>>>> When in Erfoud don`t miss out on the daily variety of Targine
>>>> beef, mutton or chicken and 30 glasses of mint tea.
>>>>
>>>> At the end of six weeks of wearing Berber you will be blue...Idir
>>>> met Idir et Kem-Kem! Truly an awesome experience to be at Kem-Kem
>>>> at SunSet on top of a tall hill and watch the winter shadows fall.
>>>>
>>>> Forget the Berber Shave and stick with Burma Shave if you are
>>>> searchingforfun.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- On Mon, 8/10/09, Brian Cox <searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> From: Brian Cox <searchingforfun at sbcglobal.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Kem Kem, the original generic name
>>>>> before NWAs, Northwest African meteorites
>>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> Date: Monday, August 10, 2009, 12:02 PM
>>>>> Here is a link to my 19.7 gram Kem
>>>>> Kem meteorite specimen, originally from Planet Brey
>>>>> meteorites about 9-10 years ago. Kem Kem was the name that
>>>>> was used approximately between 1999-2001, I was told, from
>>>>> our fellow history buffs on the list and other IMCA members
>>>>> for what we now call "NWAs" "Northwest African" meteorites.
>>>>>
>>>>> I added a photo of the original COA/card from Planet Brey
>>>>> just now in this auction.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/KEM-KEM-Meteorite-19-7g-IMCA-COA-Unclass-Probably-H5_W0QQitemZ270440268847QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef77f042f&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, and clear happy meteorite filled skies tonight!
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> IMCA # 6387
>>>>>
>>>>> searchingforfun is my
>>>>> ebay User ID
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
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>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
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>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>> Dr. Jeffrey N. Grossman phone: (703) 648-6184
>> US Geological Survey fax: (703) 648-6383
>> 954 National Center
>> Reston, VA 20192, USA
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 04:59:40 -1000
> From: Gary Fujihara <fujmon at mac.com>
> Subject: [meteorite-list] uRaman data on submitted NWA achondrite
> To: MeteorList <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Message-ID: <D7BD2C9F-593B-4259-A00B-5EA5EBD166E9 at mac.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
> Aloha,
>
> I received preliminary analysis results from Drs Jeff Taylor and Gary
> Huss of the University of Hawaii HIGP, of a submitted NWA achondrite
> that I suspected could be a lodranite. Dr Taylor used the institute's
> uRaman spectrometer to obtain spectra of the iridescent mineral, and
> much to everyone's surprise, it turns out to be Augite, not
> orthopyroxene, and certainly not plagioclase. Taylor states the main
> phase appears to be olivine, which would make the specimen more likely
> to be a brachinite. The next step is analysis in a low-pressure SEM
> next week, to check phase compositions, verification of high Ca
> content in the augite, and Fe/Mg in the phases.
>
> Sample spectral data can be seen here: http://astroday.net/meteorites.html
>
> Gary Fujihara
> AstroDay Institute
> 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720
> (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com
> http://astroday.net
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 15:03:24 +0000
> From: star_wars_collector at yahoo.com
> Subject: [meteorite-list] GA meteorite event info
> To: Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Message-ID:
> <600372529-1250262203-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1632903892- at bxe1125.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> Hey, can anyone with info on the GA meteorite event sat send me an email
> off list with info, time, etc...
> I am on my way back from FL today (as I type) and may stay over for the
> event and check it out.
> Thanks,
> Greg C
>
> Sent on the Sprint? Now Network from my BlackBerry?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 08:11:40 -0700
> From: Greg Stanley <stanleygregr at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] uRaman data on submitted NWA achondrite
> To: <fujmon at mac.com>, <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Message-ID: <SNT117-W271AFA78537888E0C6316AD2020 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Gary:
>
> That is really interesting. It has always amazed me how different some
> minerals appear (luster and crystal form) in space rocks. Not to mention
> minerals not even found in terrestrial rocks. That is one reason I enjoy
> this hobby so much.
>
> Congratulations on your specimen.
>
> Greg S.
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> From: fujmon at mac.com
>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 04:59:40 -1000
>> Subject: [meteorite-list] uRaman data on submitted NWA achondrite
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>> I received preliminary analysis results from Drs Jeff Taylor and Gary
>> Huss of the University of Hawaii HIGP, of a submitted NWA achondrite
>> that I suspected could be a lodranite. Dr Taylor used the institute's
>> uRaman spectrometer to obtain spectra of the iridescent mineral, and
>> much to everyone's surprise, it turns out to be Augite, not
>> orthopyroxene, and certainly not plagioclase. Taylor states the main
>> phase appears to be olivine, which would make the specimen more likely
>> to be a brachinite. The next step is analysis in a low-pressure SEM
>> next week, to check phase compositions, verification of high Ca
>> content in the augite, and Fe/Mg in the phases.
>>
>> Sample spectral data can be seen here:
>> http://astroday.net/meteorites.html
>>
>> Gary Fujihara
>> AstroDay Institute
>> 105 Puhili Place, Hilo, HI 96720
>> (808) 640-9161, fujmon at mac.com
>> http://astroday.net
>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get back to school stuff for them and cashback for you.
> http://www.bing.com/cashback?form=MSHYCB&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MSHYCB_BackToSchool_Cashback_BTSCashback_1x1
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of Meteorite-list Digest, Vol 71, Issue 32
> **********************************************
Received on Fri 14 Aug 2009 12:08:25 PM PDT