[meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gram
From: Galactic Stone & Ironworks <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2010 15:12:08 -0400 Message-ID: <AANLkTinoz=TyXTrDwA3V0im3966MRKXUEvcRRaNLmrZi_at_mail.gmail.com> Hi List, I have been watching this growing clusterfrick from the sidelines and I don't like a lot of what I am hearing. There are some misconceptions in circulation and there are obviously some hard feelings developing here. First, as anyone with longevity on this list knows, I have butted heads with the IMCA in the past. I felt unfairly judged by the IMCA when I was a fresh-faced idealistic (and naive) newbie, and I said some things in public that were regrettable and I sincerely apologized for them. Since then, I have stayed silent on the list about the IMCA and quietly gone about my own business. I have no ill-will towards the IMCA and I would hope that the feeling is mutual. I am not going to go into gory details and rehash the whole episode. For those who are new, here is brief summary - I applied to join, I was politely rejected, and then I noticed some inconsistencies in the membership process that raised questions in my mind. I went to 3 board members, in private, and I politely shared these concerns and asked for some kind of explanation. Again, I received polite replies, but these replies did not address my questions and I was left wondering about the IMCA's policy towards newbies. Then, I made my biggest and most regrettable mistake. I suggested a new group to be called the "Meteorite Working Group" and I announced this group on the list. I used a poor choice of words when I described the group (in part) as "an alternative to the IMCA". This gave the wrong impression and I was literally attacked for it - in public and private. My intentions were good and I had no agenda or ulterior motive. I wanted to provide a free place on the web for newbies to get hard information on meteorites and a place for educators to come and get free outreach materials. At that time, there was not a centralized place that was open to the public where people could go get outreach materials or reference materials for free, or without joining some group that required vetting. I envisioned a watering hole where people could talk freely about meteorites, compare notes, and make positive impacts on the meteorite community. I had no intent whatsoever of competing with the IMCA or replacing the IMCA. I looked at the Meteorite Working Group as a step on the ladder to eventually joining the IMCA or having a larger presence in the community - a training ground or farm team of sorts. After I received some negative feedback about it (some of it rude and accusatory, and some of it coming from long-time IMCA members), I took it personally and I vented some frustrations about the IMCA in public. Those ventings were regrettable and after being politely lectured in private by a couple of outstanding IMCA members, I cooled off and decided that I was over-reacting and was being harsh. So I apologize again (and meant it), dropped the Meteorite Working Group, and have stayed silent about the IMCA since then. Strangely, the tale took another unexpected turn. Around this time, an IMCA member contacted me in private (out of the blue) and made some stunning allegations about unethical behavior being conducted by other long-time IMCA members. I was floored by what I heard and I didn't know what to think. Why would this member confide these things in me? If the allegations were not true, then why make them in the first place? I saw no reason for this person to lie to me, so again, I contacted a long-time IMCA member and shared these allegations in private, and asked for counsel. I was told that the allegations were likely to be untrue, but my IMCA friend could not absolutely refute them because it was the first time he had heard them and he was not in a position to know all of the facts about the people involved. This eased my concerns, but it still left lingering doubts in the back of mind about the people allegedly involved. I have never repeated these allegations again to anyone, in public or private, because I realize they are unsubstantiated allegations made by someone who I really don't know very well. Since that time, I have focused on meteorites and not the behind the scenes machinations that may or may not be happening. I have maintained a largely-neutral stance towards the IMCA and it my genuine belief that the goals of the IMCA are noble and worthy of support. I count several members (including some long-time members, board members, and former board members) as my friends, and we have had extensive dealings. One member in particular has been a mentor to me. This person has shown me a great deal of patience and understanding towards me and has done a great deal to enrich my knowledge of meteorites and my enjoyment of the hobby. I feel a great debt of gratitude towards this person, and I think this person exemplifies the best of the IMCA - not just because I was treated nicely, but because this person went out of their way (for no apparent benefit) to school me on how things work in the world of meteorites. Whenever I had a question, it was answered. Whenever I had a concern, it was addressed. This is how we should all treat the newbies in our midst and I have tried to model my participation in meteorites after this person - to emulate their passion for meteorites. I don't care for the language and tone this issue has taken on. There is no need for public hostility, harsh language or accusations. We all share a passion for meteorites and what they represent and we should use this common passion to unite us, and not create division in the ranks. People from outside the hobby who are reading this blowup will get the wrong idea about meteorites and the personalities involved with them - and that is something that none of us want. Another thing I don't like is the implication that non-IMCA dealers are not trustworthy. That is not true. Regardless of whether some people like me or not, my integrity as a dealer or collector has never been called into question. Every specimen I sold, down to the last tiny speck, is 100% authentic and is exactly what I said it was. Any newbie can come to me and get a genuine specimen with solid provenance - even if it's a tiny speck that can be moved by static electricity. If I sold something as Ensisheim, Lafayette, or any other rarity, you can bet your life that it is indeed Ensisheim or Lafayette. I will gladly eat a steaming bowl of turtle poo if anyone bought something off of me that was not what I said it was. Sure, if a newbie picks an eBay seller at random, without doing their homework, then their chances of getting burned are reduced if that seller is an IMCA member. But, this does not mean that every non-IMCA dealer should be viewed with suspicion. I know there are some people out there who would love to see me be discredited and go away - I will not give them that satisfaction or dirty my own reputation be engaging in any business that is unethical or illegal. My glass house is 100% in order and I quit throwing stones a long time ago. And I expect the same in return - no IMCA member should spread the false idea that non-members are not reliable. The majority of fakes being sold on the market are obviously fakes and anyone who has done a rudimentary amount of homework will now that when they see it. The real danger is people who take real meteorites of common types and misrepresent them as another type or fall that is more rare and valuable. That is much harder to spot than most of the obvious fakes floating around on eBay. And that is exactly why I buy all of my specimens from reliable sources with longevity in the community - people with spotless reputations. Some of my sources are IMCA members, some are not. But all of them are reliable and trustworthy or I would not have any dealings with them. I collect what I sell, and I respect the intregrity of my own collection and the collections of those who purchase from me. Sadly, meteorites are special, but they are no different than any other valuable collectible on the market. There is politics, intrigues, competition, and unethical behavior - just like there is with coins, stamps, baseball cards, autographs, or any other collectible. But, I like to think that meteorites do have something extra special going for them - the majority of people reading this are very educated and they respect the truly special nature of meteorites that sets these space rocks apart from the mundane collectibles. We see less fraud and scams than many of these other collectibles. This is due, in parts, to the people involved and the IMCA. The meteorite world is still a relatively small place, and word gets around fast. And memories are long and transgressions are not easily overlooked. One misstep and a dealer is blacklisted for life. I would like to think that other dealers who are not IMCA members, like myself, will uphold the same level of ethics and good business that any IMCA member would. I have read the IMCA charter/bylaws and even though I am not a member, I uphold those standards in my dealings like any honest decent person should. And something to think about - if you buy from an IMCA member, there is a good chance you are buying a specimen that has passed through this non-member's hands. Specimens I have sold or traded have ended up in the resale inventories of IMCA members. So if non-IMCA members are not trustworthy, then why do IMCA conduct business with me that come back to bite them in the behind if I am not a reputable person? Barry is a newbie and I genuinely think he has a passion for meteorites and he entered this hobby bright-eyed, naive, and idealistic like many of us did. And he was disappointed when things seemed to be contrary to his expectations. That does not excuse his outburst, but I think it provides some context. I have done business with Barry and spoken with him in private, and I think he is a good guy at heart who happened to stick his foot in his mouth in spectacular fashion. I cannot judge him for that because I have done the same thing, more than once. The meteorite world can also be a forgiving place, if your transgression does not involve fraud or the meteorites themselves. I have been forgiven by many in the IMCA and I have extensive dealings with them - once I pried my foot out of my considerable mouth. I hope we give Barry a second chance, and use this outburst as a learning opportunity. Ok, that's my two cents. Actual worth may vary. I will now shut up. Best regards and let's get back to meteorites, MikeG On 8/20/10, Shawn Alan <photophlow at yahoo.com> wrote: > Barry, > > I am floored from what I read today of what transpired over the course of 12 > hours..... I am gone from the List for less then a day and I read these > harsh words your saying about IMCA and saying its corrupt, and to top > it off, you verbally assaulting a List member. I am sorry I cant stand back > anymore with your blow ups on the List Berry and your attach's on a member > and the IMCA. Anne is a great women and how dare you say those words to her. > She and other people make meteorite collecting a safe and enjoyable > environment. If it wasn't for the IMCA meteorite collecting would be a > different world, with corruption, lying and cheating. The IMCA is a place > for people to have a place for belonging, a place to having the ability to > contribute to an activity that they enjoy doing and be able to allow other > member of the meteorite community to have the security that they know that > they are getting a meteorite and not a rock. > > Shawn Alan > IMCA 1633 > > > > > > > > > [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gramBarry Hughes bhughes at sneezy.com > Thu Aug 19 22:38:08 EDT 2010 > > > Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gram > Next message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gram > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > I'll tell you right know...I wanted to become a member of IMCA and > asked a couple of good friends who agreed. I would no longer belong > to this corrupt organization than I would belong to the KKK. What a > farce Ann Black has made of a chance for a legitimate organization for > collectors and dealers to gather and exchange. Conflicting interest > is a joke here....silence is a plague that I can no longer ignore. > Go ahead and grease your pole with silence but it works both > ways.....you have to live with this bitch...I don't.......I'm a buyer > and I can buy from anyone. > > On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 10:11 PM, Barry Hughes <bhughes at sneezy.com> > wrote: > >> Yes...I remember that. I felt like apologizing to him, myself. > >> Thanks Carl....we'll get this straightened out tonight. > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 9:59 PM, <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote: > >>> Richard, Anne, List, > >>> This has a lot of us smoking right now. I am pressing send anyway here. >>> Sorry. > >>> The truly sad thing about this is that Anne herself is the one who >>> claimed in an earlier email that Tony did in fact have some of NWA 5363 >>> already. > >>> She went on to tell us all to be patient. > >>> This after she was made fully aware that Dr Jambon as a qualified >>> scientist, had already confirmed the pairing with NWA 5400. > >>> This is his exact quote " NWA 5363 is undoubtedly paired with NWA 5400" > >>> In the same email Dr. Jambon went on to say that; > >>> " I have been insulted. > >>> My Moroccan partners have been insulted too. > >>> We all wait for apology". > >>> Although at this time I think he might have been referring to Greg. > >>> Unless I missed it. Nobody has yet offered any kind of apology or even >>> an explanation of why they would insult him. > >>> I can't help but wonder why a board member of the IMCA would continue to >>> insult a very important scientist in our field? > >>> It seems to me an IMCA board member would try to do all they can to keep >>> from alienating and insulting our scientists. > >>> Anne what if some day the IMCA needs a favor from Dr. Jambon? Did you >>> ever think of that? > >>> Sorry Anne but, you are way out of line here because I personally made >>> sure you got a copy of Dr. Jambons email to this list. > >>> Look it up yourself in archives from June 23rd, 2010 in an email posted >>> by Zelimer Gabelica with the subject; Pairings to NWA 5400. > >>> Or I can email it to you again if you'd like. > >>> As far as I am concerned this matter has been settled since that email >>> date and I would like to offer Dr. Jambon my personal apologies for not >>> asking Anne to cool her guns until now. > >>> Anne please cool your guns and respect Dr. Jambon's work. > >>> It has been stated all along that all of this material originated from >>> Mbarek. There was really no reason to believe it was ever anything but >>> paired. > >>> Carl > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Carl or Debbie Esparza > >>> Meteoritemax > >>> > >>> > >>> ---- Richard Kowalski <damoclid at yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>> Interesting Anne. > >>>> And sad. > >>>> > >>>> I was under the impression that he was sent samples of NWA 5363 over two >>>> months ago. At least that is what I was assured in a private email by >>>> another party. > >>>> > >>>> I was hoping to see a satisfactory resolution to this controversy some >>>> time soon, but I guess it isn't to be. Ah well. It must have gotten lost >>>> in the mail. > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Richard Kowalski > >>>> Full Moon Photography > >>>> IMCA #1081 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --- On Thu, 8/19/10, Impactika at aol.com <Impactika at aol.com> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > From: Impactika at aol.com <Impactika at aol.com> > >>>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gram > >>>> > To: gmhupe at htn.net, stanleygregr at hotmail.com, rickmont at >>>> > earthlink.net, meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com, p.marmet at >>>> > sunrise.ch > >>>> > Date: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 5:43 PM > >>>> > Right. > >>>> > We all need to be patient, and let the experts do their > >>>> > work. > >>>> > > >>>> > However, last time I talked to Tony Irving, he still did > >>>> > not have a > >>>> > specimen of NWA 5363. > >>>> > So if anyone of you would be willing to help be providing a > >>>> > piece of it it > >>>> > certainly would be very nice. It does not need to be a big > >>>> > fragment, a few > >>>> > grams would probably do. > >>>> > > >>>> > And if you do have some NWA 5363, please contact me off > >>>> > List. > >>>> > Thank you. > >>>> > > >>>> > Anne M. Black > >>>> > _http://www.impactika.com/_ (http://www.impactika.com/) > >>>> > _IMPACTIKA at aol.com_ > >>>> > (mailto:IMPACTIKA at aol.com) > >>>> > > >>>> > Vice-President, I.M.C.A. Inc. > >>>> > _http://www.imca.cc_ (http://www.imca.cc) > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ______________________________________________ > >>>> Visit the Archives at >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > >>> ______________________________________________ > >>> Visit the Archives at >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > >>> Meteorite-list mailing list > >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > >>> > >> > > > > > > > Previous message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gram > Next message: [meteorite-list] NWA 6292 2.110 gram > Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] > > More information about the Meteorite-list mailing list > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Mike Gilmer - Galactic Stone & Ironworks Meteorites http://www.galactic-stone.com http://www.facebook.com/galacticstone ------------------------------------------------------------Received on Fri 20 Aug 2010 03:12:08 PM PDT |
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