[meteorite-list] Labeling specimens

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 04:13:57 -0800
Message-ID: <93aaac891002280413j2d0be9a0ka9d634641ea034a_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello Jeff,
Yes - hence I said "unless, of course, there is a
universal system off of which numbers can be derived.
But that's not going to happen."

It won't happen.
We already have a numbering system for our collection, and it's not
changing. And every other university and museum has its own system -
and they're not going to change. And many other private collections
are the same way.

So...yes, that's the answer to the problem, but it's not a plausible one.

I would still err on the side of having excess numbers that allow
individual collectors to maintain a stones identity than having
meteorites lost/misnamed.
In one case you have a meteorite with paint on it - with a known
identity. In the other, you have a rock that, while it still contains
a record of its extraterrestrial history, is essentially worthless
because you don't know where or when it was found.

Even NWA's are more valuable than that...

**Someone noted: "but how can you be sure the original numbering
system would have made its way up to you?"

You can't. The only way it works is if the person selling to you
knows what the number means. But if I paint a number on a stone, it's
much easier to check in my computer to see if that number corresponds
with a similar meteorite in my collection. And if the number on the
stone is meaningless to the person selling the stone to me, I could
still send a query to the list asking for anyone who uses a numbering
system that might include a stone matching a given description with
the particular number. It simply increases the odds of the meteorite
retaining its identity, even if it falls into the hands of a negligent
collector.

They also said: "Even great meteorite collectors like the Labenne's
appear to have lost a large amount of data with their Saharan finds.
At least you know thanks to the number that it's a Labenne find -- and
you have also the find year, but that's all."

Yes, but that's not a property of the number. In that case, the
reason why you don't have more information is because the Labenne's
aren't releasing it. If they did actually submit that information
(like they promised they would over a decade ago), we would all have
that information. As it is, the fact that those meteorites have
numbers painted on them makes them significantly more valuable than
ordinary NWA's ($$-wise), namely because it gives at least some
information about their recovery. You can't blame the fact that the
Labenne's don't release information about their finds on the fact
that they paint numbers on their stones. At any rate, assuming that
they keep the information for themselves, I can hand them a stone with
one of their numbers painted on it and they *could* tell me where and
when it was found. Even if they choose not to.

*** The stone in question was from a NWA *fall* - Zag, Amgala,
Bassikounou, etc. Unknown.

Regards,
Jason

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 3:50 AM, Jeff Kuyken <info at meteorites.com.au> wrote:
> I would tend to agree with Arnaud and I don't think everyone painting their
> own numbers is a good idea... at all!
>
> It would seem that identity is the driving factor here and the only way it
> would work is if there was a standard system. You would only need one common
> number for each meteorite. So say the number for Kilabo (LL6) is 12307.
> Anyone who needed to adopt a numbering system on their meteorites could just
> have 12307 painted on. You don't need anything else. Weights, descriptions,
> features, etc, etc are all secondary and can still be maintained in a
> database. But if that is lost, those details can still be determined by
> anyone at a later date... at least the meteorite is still identified. Who
> does the numbering system? The Meteoritical Society. They already sort of do
> in their online database. I'm sure something official could be implemented
> if something like this was needed.
>
> FYI: http://tin.er.usgs.gov/meteor/metbull.php?code=12307
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jeff
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Utas" <meteoritekid at gmail.com>
> To: "The Tricottet Collection" <tricottetcoll at live.com>; "Meteorite-list"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Labeling specimens
>
>
>> Hello Arnaud, All,
>> I agree with you - to an extent.
>> While we have inked many of our specimens, we have never sold a single
>> meteorite (and the few we've traded were never marked).
>> With so many collectors buying, selling, and trading collection
>> pieces, I can easily visualize the numbering situation getting far out
>> of control.
>>
>> But...an issue still remains.
>>
>> I can easily remember the 174 gram stone that was on ebay no more than
>> a few months back - that was from a witnessed fall in Northwest
>> Africa, but that didn't have a name because the buyer (and his
>> supplier - I asked) had forgotten its name. ?If the collector who had
>> originally purchased said meteorite had numbered it and kept his
>> records straight, that individual wouldn't have lost its identity. ?It
>> is now a "fresh unclassified NWA stone."
>> At least, that's what it sold as on ebay....
>>
>> So...there's something of a dilemma. ?Yes, stones shouldn't me
>> overmarked. ?But we have the opportunity to ensure that stones will
>> not be misnamed or misplaced.
>> And that's where the judgement call must happen; people shouldn't
>> inherently mark their meteorites with collection numbers, because,
>> well, it can't be undone. ?But at the same time, people know how well
>> they keep track of things; if they know that they're that
>> disorganized, perhaps they should go and draw on their meteorites. ?If
>> it's the only way they can be sure of keeping track of their
>> collection with 110% certainty, I would say that they should go ahead
>> and do it.
>>
>> I've seen more than one meteorite go miscataloged and lose its
>> identity; it was enough for me to say that the person who allowed it
>> to happen was grossly negligent, and didn't have the *right* to curate
>> such scientifically important items.
>> After all, when all we are is a temporary steward to a rock that's
>> held its identity for more than four and a half billion years, who are
>> we to misplace its label and effectively erase its terrestrial
>> history.
>>
>> Hence my two-mindedness. ?I think that, yes, if everyone numbers their
>> meteorites, there will be problems - unless, of course, there is a
>> universal system off of which numbers can be derived.
>> But that's not going to happen.
>> And at the same time, I think that our current system of doing things
>> is inadequate; meteorites are being honestly misnamed and misplaced in
>> such a way that they lose their identities.
>> That simply shouldn't happen. ?Ever. ?We have brains that are more
>> than capable of ensuring that it doesn't happen, so the fact that it
>> does only goes to show that keeping such things straight simply isn't
>> a priority.
>>
>> So...I would advocate having meteorites with multiple numbers on them.
>> I'd rather have a meteorite with a known identity - with three
>> numbers on it - than a meteorite with no identity and no numbers on
>> it. ?Hell, I'd rather have ten meteorites with five numbers on them
>> than a thirty meteorites without names.
>> Or a hundred. ?After all, they'd be completely worthless.
>>
>> Just my opinion.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 1:51 AM, The Tricottet Collection
>> <tricottetcoll at live.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I would like to disagree with everyone here. If we all start painting
>>> numbers on meteorites, in 2-3 generations, all specimens will be full of
>>> useless graffiti - who will know which number matches which "minor"
>>> collection? So the problem would remain exactly the same. When I say
>>> "minor", I mean not a lot of people have a collection which can be compared
>>> to a Nininger, Monnig or any national museum collection! And with time, with
>>> more maturity, what if you find your inventory numbering system inefficient,
>>> what if you decide to change it?
>>>
>>> Personally I will never paint anything on my collection specimens. I
>>> prefer to take 1 or more pictures per specimen + weight + other important
>>> characteristics, label them and keep then in different boxes.
>>>
>>> Just my opinion,
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Arnaud
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Tricottet Collection of Natural History Specimens
>>> (Minerals, Fossils & Meteorites)
>>> www.thetricottetcollection.com
>>> Facebook: The Tricottet Collection
>>> Twitter: TricottetColl
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2010 08:52:34 +0000
>>>> From: msgmeteorites at googlemail.com
>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Labeling specimens
>>>>
>>>> Hi Ed, Svend, Jason, all,
>>>>
>>>> Very good points indeed and interesting reading. Theres a lot to chew
>>>> over there but looks like i may be taking the plunge and starting the
>>>> process at some point.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks very much for all your considered and informative replies
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Martin
>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>> Visit the Archives at
>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________________________
>>> Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection.
>>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>>
>> ______________________________________________
>> Visit the Archives at
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>>
>>
>
>
Received on Sun 28 Feb 2010 07:13:57 AM PST