[meteorite-list] 5 reasons to record meteorite coordinates

From: Erik Fisler <erikfwebb_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 07:14:42 -0700
Message-ID: <COL119-W51FBC4D38A06800D00E42CA4330_at_phx.gbl>

Jason,? Like I said earlier, "If worst comes to worst."? I'm not saying I'm planning on lying about tomorrow's finds but if the government starts confiscating meteorites from state or BLM land I will.?
Say you find 20 stones approx. 8 kilos.? Does the Smithsonian need all 8 kilos? NO!
You make it sound as though I want to keep %100 of the TKW, or that the
Smithsonian needs %100 of the TKW


" if they're not in some public forum, they're as good as gone."

The Smithsonian is not public forum. And I'm sure they wouldn't display
%100 of your material.

At least in my drawer someone can appreciate them.? I'm sure the people
at the Smithsonian take each peace and fondle it all the time. Right... Most pieces probably need a good dusting.

If my laptop crashes my external hard drive lives on.
Point is that IF the government demands ownership of all BLM and state finds,? I will not cut my search area to more than half, and be discouraged to hunt on BLM and state lands.?

The average strewn field meets those dimensions, yes.? Try one that is half a mile wide by 11 miles with a tkw of 4-5 pieces totaling 2 kilos.? Then coordinates matter.? I might be sitting and complaining but that does not mean I haven't gone out to try to "find the damn thing."? And i can complain while I find the damn thing, because it isn't and either-or situation.?

Of course we are talking about a hypothetical situation. I do not lie about my coordinates, and I do catalog, map and photograph insitu pictures.? You've seen my photobucket so I don't know why you brought it up.

[Erik]

?

----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:15:10 -0800
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 5 reasons to record meteorite coordinates
> From: meteoritekid at gmail.com
> To: erikfwebb at msn.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>
>> Of course I would carefully record my coordinates of my finds as I do now. I just wouldn't submit the true coordinates with the classification for fear of being punished for collecting meteorites on BLM or state land.
>
> Secret data *is* lost data. If you don't tell people the truth, when
> you die, it simply disappears. And in the meantime, you're misleading
> both your hunting colleagues as well as the scientific establishment
> as to where they were found - all so that you can keep them for
> yourself.
>
>>No data lost. Just private information, much like many strewn field coordinates that I do not have access to withing universities.
>
> Private information *is* lost information. When we submit for
> provisional numbers, we still submit coordinates. They're
> somewhere...
>
>>The stewn field maps and coordinates i have on my laptop and hard drive would stay their for my reference, and the reference of other hunters who wont let the government step on our rights to hunt meteorites.
>
> Again, if they're not in some public forum, they're as good as gone.
> What happens to those numbers when you die? They disappear.
>
>>If the universities wanted, of course I would carefully record my coordinates of my finds as I do now. I just wouldn't submit the true coordinates with the classification for fear of being punished for collecting meteorites on BLM or state land. No data lost. Just private information, much like many strewn field coordinates that I do not have access to within universities.
>
> You keep insisting that your having it means that it exists and is
> therefor the same as your submitting the true information.
> That's simply not true.
> The level of security in that case is negligible; your computer
> crashes, the information is lost. You die, the information is lost.
> And your credibility goes to the crapper because you're lying to the
> Meteoritical Bulletin. If news of that gets around, universities
> simply won't classify your material anymore -- or they'll take it and
> eventually give it Nova numbers themselves. You'd be the new Ron
> Farrell!
> If you really didn't want to submit the real coordinates, what would
> be appropriate is a Nova number, not a set of fake coordinates.
> Saying that you're withholding the coordinates is one thing - it may
> not be good, but at least it's not lying.
> There's really nothing that you could do that's worse.
>
>>The stewn field maps and coordinates i have on my laptop and hard drive would stay their for my reference, and the reference of other hunters who wont let the government step on our rights to hunt meteorites.
>
> But in "maintaining your right to hunt for meteorites," you would
> tread all over the science of them. I honestly don't understand why
> you even hunt for meteorites anymore; you clearly don't care much for
> the science of them.
>
>>If the universities want true coordinates I would have to have them classified behind closed doors, if possible. Or they can choose to turn their heads away from the law and classify my stones regardless, then there would be no loss in data.
>
> Either way, you would be lying to the Meteoritical Bulletin and to the
> general public, including other hunters.
> That doesn't work.
>
>>Jason, Speaking of more stones being recovered, don't you hate when
> the coordinates listed are just general coordinates.
>
> Yeah, that's usually seen more with older finds - namely when they
> didn't have GPS' and the like. Of course, when you go back through
> records, you can usually find references to farms, ranches, and
> homesteads, and if you go back through land records, you can usually
> pin down such things to pretty small areas.
>
>>How can we recover
> more and thoroughly conduct a search when the only stone found is
> listed with minutes and no seconds?
>
> Well, the average strewnfield *is* more than five miles long and a
> mile and a half wide, so what it would take is really just some
> diligent hunting. How do you think they re-found Kainsaz, Pultusk,
> Seymchan, Brenham, Trenton, Deport, Springwater, or any of the other
> older falls/finds? Hard work, persistence, luck.
> It *does* work.
>
>>Either some coconut head didn't take
> GPS and had to point out on a map were he found it, or they do not want
> you to know the exact location. Either way is extremely frustrating.
>
> Yeah, but you can sit around complaining about it or you can head out
> and try to find the damn thing. Really only two options...
>
>> Hopefully universities would ignore the law and accept finds on BLM or
> state land with true coordinates without snitching on the person who
> saved the data from terrestrializing. Although some people submit like
> dogs when pressured! lol
>
> And idealistically, you wouldn't lie. I don't see any humor in this
> topic. You're talking about falsifying records so that you can keep
> things for yourself. Granted, maybe you 'should' be able to keep
> them, but...lying simply isn't the answer to that problem. It's
> disgraceful.
>
>>And yes Jason, I would lie about find coordinates to keep SOME of the material. If the tkw is less then 50 grams then I would probably give the whole mass to the university but kilos of material is just going to end up in storage or traded to some other meteorite dealer or hunter. I would however, respect you for hunting and donating 100% of your material to a university.
>
> If it's the difference between keeping the thing in a drawer in my
> house and seeing it on display in the Smithsonian, well, that's not
> much of a choice. You don't sell any of your finds anyways, so I
> don't see much of a difference. My drawer, their drawer...eh. I'd
> prefer mine, but I suppose if I wanted to keep them enough, I'd just
> keep my finds secret in general, bequeathing them to the Smithsonian
> when I die. Of course, that would take keeping impeccable records and
> leaving comprehensive lists that could be cross-referenced with
> meticulously recorded and notated photographs in digital and tangible
> forms with family members and a legal counsel, at the very least. I
> don't think you're up to the challenge.
>
> What you don't seem to understand as well is that the material
> wouldn't go to a university. It would belong to the federal
> government/The Smithsonian. When you donate 20 grams to wherever it
> is you donate your sample, it doesn't go to the smithsonian and it in
> no way satiates the federal "requirement." They're different
> organizations. You might as well donate your year's tuition to a
> school club and try to say that you've paid it in full to the school.
> It's just not the same.
>
> Jason
>
>>
>> Jason, Speaking of more stones being recovered, don't you hate when
>> the coordinates listed are just general coordinates. How can we recover
>> more and thoroughly conduct a search when the only stone found is
>> listed with minutes and no seconds? Either some coconut head didn't take
>> GPS and had to point out on a map were he found it, or they do not want
>> you to know the exact location. Either way is extremely frustrating.
>>
>>
>> Hopefully universities would ignore the law and accept finds on BLM or
>> state land with true coordinates without snitching on the person who
>> saved the data from terrestrializing. Although some people submit like
>> dogs when pressured! lol
>>
>> And yes Jason, I would lie about find coordinates to keep SOME of the material. If the tkw is less then 50 grams then I would probably give the whole mass to the university but kilos of material is just going to end up in storage or traded to some other meteorite dealer or hunter. I would however, respect you for hunting and donating 100% of your material to a university.
>>
>> [Erik]
>>
>>
>>>> Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:52:33 -0500
>>>> From: cdtucson at cox.net
>>>> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; ROBERT.D.MATSON at saic.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 5 reasons to record meteorite coordinates
>>>>
>>>> Rob,
>>>> I can think of a few more myself but as I said .In my opinion the need for this info is outweighed by the harm it causes. SEE BELOW IN ALL CAPS.
>>>> --
>>>> Carl or Debbie Esparza
>>>> Meteoritemax
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---- "Matson wrote:
>>>>> Carl asks:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't yet understand why people put so much importance on find
>>>>>> co-ords and strewnfields. It has not only been pointed out by another
>>>>>> important list member that "A meteorite does not care where it lands".
>>>>>> (Ted Bunch).
>>>>>
>>>>> You may be quoting Ted out of context. Yes, a meteorite doesn't care.
>>>>> But people do, including many researchers. Recording find coordinates
>>>>> serves at least five purposes that I can think of, right off the bat:
>>>>
>>>> QUOTE IS IN CONTEXT AND ACCURATE. THIS SILENCED JASON A FEW WEEKS BACK WHILE ON HIS HIGH HORSE.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. In situ photographic provenance. If a meteorite becomes separated
>>>>> from
>>>>> its identifying documentation, a photograph in the field with a GPS unit
>>>>> is an excellent way to reestablish its identity. This can be very
>>>>> helpful
>>>>> when a meteorite has been sent to a lab for analysis, and its label gets
>>>>> lost or the sample confused with another meteorite at that lab.
>>>>>
>>>> NOT A SCIENTIFIC NEED BUT IS I AGREE EQUALLY AS USEFUL AS A STICKY LABEL.
>>>>
>>>>> 2. For recent falls, it can help tell you something about the dynamics
>>>>> of the fall, such as the entry azimuth (being careful to account for
>>>>> wind drift), and terminal burst vs. multiple fragmentation.
>>>>
>>>> YES, THIS DID A LOT OF GOOD FINDING MORE LORTON PIECES. SORRY.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. For finds, it is a necessary (but not by itself sufficient) metric
>>>>> for establishing likely pairings.
>>>>
>>>> PAIRINGS ARE ONLY AS GOOD AS THE SCIENCE UTILIZED TO DETERMINE THEM. WE NOW KNOW THAT PAIRINGS DON'T HAVE TO BE OF LIKE TYPES. ALMAHATTA SITTA TELLS US THAT THEY CAN BE TOTALLY DIFFERENT CLASSES AND STILL BE PAIRED SO, ONLY TRUE TESTING CAN DETERMINE THIS.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. With find coordinates and care with pairing, it becomes possible to
>>>>> estimate minimum annual meteorite fall rate based on the number of
>>>>> unpaired finds over a carefully surveyed area.
>>>>
>>>> YOU CAN ALSO MAKE THESE GUESSES AT WILL.
>>>>>
>>>>> And most valuable to the finders working an area:
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. The distribution of find coordinates may provide evidence of fluvial
>>>>> and aeolian transport. This can greatly enhance meteorite recovery rate
>>>>> by transforming a two-dimensional search problem into a 1-dimensional
>>>>> boundary search.
>>>>
>>>> I'M SURE THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME BUT I CANNOT THINK OF A TIME IT HAS.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure others can add more to this list. The point is, just because
>>>>> one person doesn't believe recording find coordinates is important
>>>>> doesn't mean it isn't valuable to someone else. So by failing to do
>>>>> so, either through ignorance or apathy, a hunter is destroying
>>>>> scientific data.
>>>> ROB, ALL OF THOSE POINTS ARE OF NOTE BUT FALL INTO THE TRIVIAL DEPARTMENT TO MOST OF US. AGAIN MOSTLY BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING MORE TO BE LEARNED BY THEM. THE WHEEL IS AN OLD THING. AND SCIENCE HAS A LOT MORE IMPORTANT WAYS TO HELP US. MUCH THE WAY YOU DO ALREADY. WE NEED SCIENCE TO MAKE THINGS EASIER FOR US. AND TO THAT POINT BY GIVING UP CO-ORDS YOU GIVE UP YOUR TREASURE MAP. WHO DOES THAT?
>>>> THANKS THOUGH. YOU TOO ARE LOVED. CARL
>>>>>
>>>>> --Rob
>>>>> ______________________________________________
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>>>>
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Received on Wed 10 Mar 2010 09:14:42 AM PST