[meteorite-list] tatahouine

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 13:07:41 -0700
Message-ID: <BANLkTimo=scEonu6i7fakYz3=_tSsSNiJQ_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello Carl, All,
Same format -

1) I am not the police. When I see someone say something that I
perceive to be untrue, I say something about it. When I see someone
saying something unduly mean and/or possibly incriminating --
especially if they have no evidence to back their comments up -- I'll
say something about it.

That's what any decent person would do.

2) With regards to Bill Sajkowitz, I have not stated what you claim I
have. I surmised that his finds were highly suspect, and, after
talking with some other local hunters who have spoken with him, I
personally believe that his claims of finding what he has are not
based in fact.

That is not to say that I have any *good evidence* to support my beliefs.

But -- when I hear stories about people who appear out of nowhere and
submit multiple new, large, and extremely rare meteorites that they
claim to have found, and then refuse to show *anyone* a single one of
their finds -- I tend to believe that the stories aren't true. If
someone makes a crazy claim, I expect to see some evidence supporting
it. If the person making the claims has repeatedly refused to do even
that, I begin to wonder...

That is all I'm willing to say on the matter; outright accusing anyone
of fraud at this point would again be akin to libel. Sajkowitz could
be the luckiest meteorite hunter in the world. It's possible. All I
can say is that I personally doubt that because I'm a rational person.
 Believe what you will.

3) Elton does not "keep things real." He has made a number of
informative posts over the years, but whenever Steve Arnold of Chicago
comes up, he goes off the deep end. What if Steve is using money his
wife has earned to buy meteorites? What if he's using money from
sales? What if he has a little money saved up from his job and he's
buying meteorites with that? Unless Elton can prove that none of
these possibilities is true, he *needs* to stop accusing Steve of
illicit crap, because what he is saying is legally libel, and I have
the feeling the only reason he keeps saying the same crap is because
he likes taking out his pent-up emotional crap on Steve -- and because
he knows he can get away with it.

Furthermore, you completely disregarded my note about how most dealers
and collectors avoid paying taxes on many transactions because many
purchases are simply never declared. Unless we're talking about
getting the IMCA to enforce such things, bringing up this sort of
federal/state financial rubbish is just crap.
It's like trying to plaster a politician you don't like with something
-- when you know they're all guilty of the same things anyways.

If Steve has cheated people in our community, that is an issue that
they should take up with the IMCA, and if they wish to make public
comments regarding his integrity to the list, detailing the situation,
that is up to them.

I've heard of countless underhanded things that prominent list-members
have done over the years, and I'm not saying anything about them.
Why? It's not my place to bring other peoples' issues to light. If
they want to do that, it's on them. Not you, Elton, or I. Secondhand
information becomes third, becomes hearsay. It all becomes rumors and
lies.

Elton's making unrelated accusations without proof, and with what
appears to be pure malice as a motivator. That passes in politics,
but I'd like to think we meteorite-folk can at least pretend to have
higher standards.

Jason

On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 12:33 PM, <cdtucson at cox.net> wrote:
> Jason,
> How does that saying go?
> If you look up "the pot calling the kettle black" you would see a picture of you.
> Jason, you are arguably the most police like person on this list.
> This is a good thing in my opinion.
> We need policeman such as you and Elton in order to keep people honest.
> Jason, it was you ?that was quick to point out how odd it was for a newbie: someone none of us has ever heard of. cold-Found three new achondrites in Az. This with NO ordinary chondrite finds under his belt.
> No, you did not out right call him a fraud but we all got your point that this guy did the impossible (at least statistically).
> We all got your point loud and clear that this guy had obviously planted these finds.
> To me besides the obvious problem with this jerk faking finds is the fact that with registered co-ords , others have followed him looking for more of the same material. Material that they obviously will never find because as you pointed out it was planted there.
> Again, I applaud the two of you for keeping things real here.
> After all, Steve did ask to buy tatahuine material. and he is presumably on unemployment.
> I also agree that the sale of personal property is not a problem but Steve wanted to buy it not sell it.
> I am not the judge of this but you two are very much alike and that is a good thing.
> Carl
> Carl or Debbie Esparza
> Meteoritemax
>
>
> ---- Jason Utas <meteoritekid at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Elton, A few things,
>>
>> 1) This issue is essentially identical to a similar situation from
>> about a year ago in which a list-member publicly 'called out' another
>> member on supposed illegal things they'd done. ?Regardless of the
>> court's verdict, the person who publicly posted the libel (yes,
>> "libel," because Chicago Steve has not been determined to be guilty of
>> anything) was banned from the list. ?In my opinion, you deserve the
>> same treatment.
>>
>> You are publicly accusing Steve of illegal and potentially damaging
>> things without a shred of proof.
>>
>> That is libel, and this list should not serve as a means for your
>> illegal dissemination of unfounded, damaging accusations.
>>
>> If this list is 'fair,' you should be banned.
>>
>> 2) The issue that you have brought to light in no way has any bearing
>> on Steve's dealings in meteorites. ?I know for a fact that taxes are
>> not paid on many dealer and collector transactions because both cash
>> and rocks trade hands undeclared. ?Since I don't see you decrying such
>> actions as defrauding the government, and since the money saved in
>> such transactions goes back into the dealers' pockets and is converted
>> into new inventory, I can only assume that you're singling out Steve
>> here again, just like good ole' times, because you've got the same
>> cactus lodged up your backside. ?I don't know how or why you've got
>> such a beef with Steve, but I'm going to have to implore you, just as
>> I did years ago, to TAKE IT OFF LIST.
>>
>> And if you've got a problem with Eric's email list -- I've got a yahoo
>> email account, too -- you can easily block his email address or mark
>> all of his incoming messages as spam with LITERALLY TWO CLICKS OF A
>> MOUSE. ?Since you haven't done that, just as you have chosen not to
>> block Steve (and have instead opted to publicly attack him...yet
>> again), I can only assume, as I did before, that you enjoy berating
>> people in public merely for the amusement of it.
>>
>> Given your colorful and patchy history on this list due to prior list
>> infractions, I have no reason to believe otherwise.
>>
>> Best,
>> Jason
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 2, 2011 at 11:09 AM, MEM <mstreman53 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> > Erics post about his opinion of what was or was not list business was responded
>> > to off list --as he demanded but did not do himself. ?I also repeated for the
>> > nth time my desire to be removed from his mailing list for ebay auctions..sigh.
>> >
>> > My post about a specific incidence of questionable "Ethics". ? In the meteorite
>> > hobby, ethics extends beyond "which country allows or doesn't allow meteorite
>> > export". ?When someone is potentially breaking a law then it is legitimate
>> > discussion--especially when they are so in your face about it and freely posts
>> > the details to the list. ?When someone is posting what most might believe to be
>> > personal details (e.g. TMI )then it is also fodder for list discussion when it
>> > raises the specter of fraud or abuse. ?Under that license, I addressed a
>> > questionable activity to ensure that ethics were in fact being adhered to.
>> > Seems the enablers don't care truly care about ethics-- just situational ethics
>> > and protecting their diseased cows at the risk and expense other cow herders.
>> >
>> >
>> > None of us wants Steve to "inadvertantly" violate any laws--especially any that
>> > would bring discredit to the hobby. I think he was fairly notified that someone
>> > IS looking over his shoulder just in case. ?This is a good thing as Martha might
>> > have said during her stint up river.
>> >
>> > Elton
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> >> From: Meteorites USA <eric at meteoritesusa.com>
>> >> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> Sent: Sat, April 2, 2011 1:11:14 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] tatahouine
>> >>
>> >> Elton, I fail to see how Steve's personal life, or business is any of
>> >> yours. ?Nor can I see where your borderline libel and inflammatory post
>> >> has any ?place on this list.
>> >>
>> >> I'm not sure anyone here wishes to read it, and it's ?an obvious personal
>> >> attack with legal implications. Just because you have ?something in your
>> >> craw for Steve doesn't mean everyone here on list wants to ?read or hear
>> >> about it. Your post is highly unprofessional and perhaps ?illegal unto
>> >> itself. Please take personal and legal matters offlist!
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Eric
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 4/2/2011 9:52 AM, MEM ?wrote:
>> >> > (NOTE: waste, fraud , and abuse of public funds is a matter of ?public
>> >>interest)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Steve, ?If you were to ask, I am ?sure some folks here on the list would
>> >>"rent"
>> >> > you some ? meteorites-- Netflix-style-- you can swap out every 2 weeks and
>> >>save
>> >> > all ?the
>> >> >
>> >> > hassle of buying high and selling low.
>> >> >
>> >> > ?However I need to ask: are you using your unemployment check again to ?buy
>> >> > meteorites? We both know the ?Illinois Department of Labor ?doesn't look
>> >>kindly
>> >> > on using
>> >> >
>> >> > unemployment funds to ?purchase inventory for ?business-activity--and they
>> >> > consider buying ?and selling
>> >> >
>> >> > business-activity whether declared or not. ?In ?fact one isn't eligible for
>> >> > unemployment if they run their own business, ?and if it is an unlicensed
>> >> > business. ?That gets into the fraud ?arena....again.
>> >> >
>> >> > One may not own/operate a "business" while ?drawing unemployment
>> >> > compensation--and...well you already know that ?don't you? You may not be
>> >>earning
>> >> >
>> >> > "wages" but you aren't ?unemployed, if you are buying and selling. ?Some
>> >>folks
>> >> > ?have
>> >> >
>> >> > the ?the IDOL Fraud Hotline on speed dial. The ?messages you post on the
>> >>internet
>> >> >
>> >> > are ?evidence that you ?engage in buying and selling during times of
>> >> > ?unemployment.
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't know the penalty of a conviction on this ?but is it really worth the
>> >>risk
>> >> >
>> >> > and given everything else you ?say is on your plate do you really want to
>> >>take
>> >> > groceries money to spend ?$350-600 for something you will eventually sell
>> > for
>> >> > $70-80 out of ?desperation.
>> >> >
>> >> > Elton
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- ?Original Message ----
>> >> >
>> >> >> From: stevearnold<stevenarnold60120 at yahoo.com>
>> >> >> ?To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> >> ?Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 9:04:52 AM
>> >> >> Subject: [meteorite-list] tatahouine
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Good morning list.Anyone have any tatahouine ?available?Say in the 10 to 20
>> >>gram
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ?range and could give me a good deal?
>> >> >> ? Steve R.Arnold, ?Chicago!
>> >> >>
>> >> > ?______________________________________________
>> >> > Visit the Archives at
>> >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> >> > ?Meteorite-list mailing list
>> >> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> ______________________________________________
>> >> Visit the Archives ?at
>> >>http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> >> Meteorite-list ?mailing list
>> >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >>
>> > ______________________________________________
>> > Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> > Meteorite-list mailing list
>> > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> >
>> ______________________________________________
>> Visit the Archives at http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
Received on Sat 02 Apr 2011 04:07:41 PM PDT