[meteorite-list] Moon Dust
From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:55:01 -0400
Hi Jeff and List,
What strikes me here is that NASA has 842 pounds of lunar material and
they are apparently bent out shape over a few milligrams of dust
clinging to a piece of scotch tape. It's absolutely silly and it
speaks of skewed priorities.
It was mentioned to me in private email by a respected list member
that the NASA samples in question were not addressed by the law until
1972. If that is true, then it seems to me that any sample removed
legally prior to that date would be "grand-fathered in" as legal.
A relevant example would be trinitite. Trinitite removed before the
law specifically addressed it is legal. However, going to the site
now and removing trinitite is illegal. Another example would be
Canyon Diablo iron meteorites - those CD meteorites removed before the
"prohibition" are legal. Those removed today are illegal because one
must trespass to get them. The devil is in the details - how does one
distinguish a legal Diablo meteorite from an illegal one? And how
would one determine a legal piece of dusty tape from an illegal one?
ATTENTION GOVERNMENT - STOP PISSING AWAY OUR TAX MONEY CHASING AFTER
DUSTY TAPE! Instead, here are some suggestions for using our tax
money - build homes for the homeless, feed the hungry, offer medical
care to the sick, create jobs for the unemployed, fund the sciences,
or any number of things that are more important than dusty tape.
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On 6/25/11, Jeff Grossman <jngrossman at gmail.com> wrote: > [This email was written by me as a private citizen, and does not reflect > any kind of official position by NASA] > > If you want to see the loan agreements that are used today, please read: > > http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/sampreq/LunarAllocHandbook.pdf > > Agreements such as the one shown here have long been used at NASA, and > I'm pretty sure most "official" samples in the past have had paperwork > such as this accompanying them. I don't know what kind of variability > of terms there have been in these agreements, but I'm confident that, > whatever they say, they are legally binding on the recipients who sign them. > > I don't understand why people would be surprised that material of any > value removed from a federal facility without permission might be > subject to scrutiny. This sounds like theft to me, and doesn't seem to > require any special law pertaining to the specific material. So, I > don't understand the comment about "self-proclaimed laws." Even if > there is no cover-up of the removal or subsequent sale, that does not > necessarily make it legal. I think the legal issue might come down to > whether or not the remover had permission, either expressed or implied. > > Jeff > > > On 6/25/2011 3:08 PM, cdtucson at cox.net wrote: >> Michael, Rafael, List, >> Is it possible NASA has it's own people (police) enforcing this self >> proclaimed laws against owning material. Or is their a congressional order >> making this material illegal after the fact? After is was given away as >> trophies. >> This method of self enforcement seems to work well for another Federal >> agency known as the IRS. >> They have their own set of rules and also self enforce their own rules >> with their own enforcement people without do process of the law. >> I ask because as I have said before on this list; I have seen and held and >> actual piece of the moon that was returned from the Apollo missions. >> A friend brought it over to my home. I did not think to photograph it at >> the time but it was about a 5 gram fragment encased in resin and it had a >> presentation plaque right on it that stated it was an actual piece of the >> moon returned from an Apollo mission. It did not say it was a facsimile of >> the moon but a real piece. >> This was given to one of the bosses at one of the aerospace companies that >> built the ships for the missions. He has since passed away but, retired >> from Raytheon right here in Tucson and it was shown to me by his grandson. >> Out of fear from this story surfacing a couple of years ago he now >> refuses to show it to me again until this is cleared up. He too has not >> been able to find any written evidence that NASA has the legal right to >> confiscate this material. >> If memory serves me correctly, The past article stated that this material >> was only on loan to these lucky recipients but, it is to be returned upon >> their death. The piece I saw did not say that it was on loan anywhere on >> the [piece itself. >> So, again, my question is. Do these NASA folks or congress actually have >> any of this ownership business in writing any where we could see it????? >> Carl >> >> -- >> >> >> >> >> >> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. >> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote". >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ---- Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com> wrote: >>> Hi Rafael, >>> >>> I do not know for certain that owning Apollo moon dust is illegal. In >>> fact, I think samples such as Florian's tape specimens are or should >>> be legal. Up until recently, I just assumed that they were. The fact >>> that law enforcement has stepped in and is actively pursuing these >>> samples at least gives the impression that law enforcement thinks it >>> is illegal. >>> >>> I am not an attorney, nor have I worked for NASA or government. But, >>> it seems to be commonly-accepted wisdom that owning NASA-sourced >>> samples is a no-no. When the US government handed out "moon rocks" to >>> other governments, some of these eventually found their way onto the >>> private market. There was at least one publicized case where the >>> sample was confiscated and returned. >>> >>> So whether it is legal or not, the current modus-operandi of law >>> enforcement is to harass and prosecute owners of such samples as soon >>> as they are discovered. >>> >>> In the case where a NASA intern stole a sample from JSC, he was >>> prosecuted and rightfully so. But, I do not agree with people being >>> harassed or arrested for trading tiny pieces of tape with a milligram >>> of dust on them - that is silly and a waste of taxpayer money. >>> >>> You won't get any argument from me about that. :) >>> >>> Law-enforcement is not infallible and the make mistakes all the time. >>> Just because someone is arrested for something, doesn't mean it is >>> illegal. But, the fact that people are being harassed for this now, >>> would make me think twice about trading in this material until the >>> legal questions are resolved. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> MikeG >>> >>> PS - nobody is going to lose this debate, because in my case, you are >>> preaching to the choir! :) >>> >>> -- >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Galactic Stone& Ironworks - Meteorites& Amber (Michael Gilmer) >>> >>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com >>> Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my >>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 >>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone >>> EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564 >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> >>> "> I ask to Michael Gilbert (Galactic Stone), can you tell me exactly >>> *(Date)* >>>> *which* law prohibits individuals to have samples of lunar rocks >>>> brought by >>>> NASA." >>> This is something I would like to know as well, and if anyone can >>> answer this definitively, I am anxious to hear it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/25/11, Rafael Navarro<rafael.navarro7 at gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Well ,Michael Blood you can not talk about the speck in your brother's >>>> eye, >>>> when you do not see the beam in yours, (the eyes not see to inward). >>>> I had the suspicion that NASA gave lunar rock samples (Apollo 11) >>>> without >>>> having studied, hize a research about it and wanted to share my findings >>>> with members of Met-list, but the editors of the list, censored my >>>> posts >>>> by be suspect and out of place. >>>> *Definitely, the ignorance is bold.* >>>> I ask to Michael Gilbert (Galactic Stone), can you tell me exactly >>>> *(Date)* >>>> *which* law prohibits individuals to have samples of lunar rocks >>>> brought by >>>> NASA. >>>> Or you only repeat those words because you've heard to someone say it? >>>> Also, you believe that among all the samples collected on the moon only >>>> arrived two microscopic meteorites? >>>> You believe everything what others say? >>>> You know something about it, or also repeat this like a parrot ? >>>> *Yes in truth, It is terrifying! They are EVERYWHERE!* >>>> * >>>> * >>>> Rafael Navarro >>>> >>>> *PD : *And do not worry about answering;I know that you will do not. >>>> I suspect that you are smart enough not to continue a discussion that >>>> you >>>> are not sure of winning. >>>> * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> * >>>> >>> ______________________________________________ >>> Visit the Archives at >>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >Received on Sat 25 Jun 2011 07:55:01 PM PDT