[meteorite-list] Moon Dust

From: Michael Gilmer <*meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:55:01 -0400 Message-ID: <BANLkTimBXfH+m_LdCa2Yiu45Xyjc7u4LEQ_at_mail.gmail.com> · meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer)
Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 6/25/11, Jeff Grossman <jngrossman at gmail.com> wrote:
> [This email was written by me as a private citizen, and does not reflect
> any kind of official position by NASA]
>
> If you want to see the loan agreements that are used today, please read:
>
> http://curator.jsc.nasa.gov/lunar/sampreq/LunarAllocHandbook.pdf
>
> Agreements such as the one shown here have long been used at NASA, and
> I'm pretty sure most "official" samples in the past have had paperwork
> such as this accompanying them.  I don't know what kind of variability
> of terms there have been in these agreements, but I'm confident that,
> whatever they say, they are legally binding on the recipients who sign them.
>
> I don't understand why people would be surprised that material of any
> value removed from a federal facility without permission might be
> subject to scrutiny.  This sounds like theft to me, and doesn't seem to
> require any special law pertaining to the specific material.  So, I
> don't understand the comment about "self-proclaimed laws."  Even if
> there is no cover-up of the removal or subsequent sale, that does not
> necessarily make it legal.  I think the legal issue might come down to
> whether or not the remover had permission, either expressed or implied.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On 6/25/2011 3:08 PM, cdtucson at cox.net wrote:
>> Michael, Rafael, List,
>> Is it possible NASA has it's own people (police) enforcing this self
>> proclaimed laws against owning material. Or is their a congressional order
>> making this material illegal after the fact? After is was given away as
>> trophies.
>> This method of self enforcement seems to work well for another Federal
>> agency known as  the IRS.
>> They have their own set of rules and also self enforce their own rules
>> with their own enforcement people without do process of the law.
>> I ask because as I have said before on this list; I have seen and held and
>> actual piece of the moon that was returned from the Apollo missions.
>> A friend brought it over to my home. I did not think to photograph it at
>> the time but it was about a 5 gram fragment encased in resin and it had a
>> presentation plaque right on it that stated it was an actual piece of the
>> moon returned from an Apollo mission. It did not say it was a facsimile of
>> the moon but a real piece.
>> This was given to one of the bosses at one of the aerospace companies that
>> built the ships for the missions. He has since passed away but, retired
>> from Raytheon right here in Tucson and it was shown to me by his grandson.
>> Out of fear from this story surfacing a couple of years ago he  now
>> refuses to show it to me again until this is cleared up. He too has not
>> been able to find any written evidence that NASA has the legal right to
>> confiscate this material.
>> If memory serves me correctly, The past article stated that this material
>> was only on loan to these lucky recipients but, it is to be returned upon
>> their death. The piece I saw did not say that it was on loan anywhere on
>> the [piece itself.
>> So, again, my question is. Do these NASA folks or congress actually have
>> any of this ownership business in writing any where we could see it?????
>> Carl
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
>> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---- Michael Gilmer<meteoritemike at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>> Hi Rafael,
>>>
>>> I do not know for certain that owning Apollo moon dust is illegal.  In
>>> fact, I think samples such as Florian's tape specimens are or should
>>> be legal.  Up until recently, I just assumed that they were.  The fact
>>> that law enforcement has stepped in and is actively pursuing these
>>> samples at least gives the impression that law enforcement thinks it
>>> is illegal.
>>>
>>> I am not an attorney, nor have I worked for NASA or government.  But,
>>> it seems to be commonly-accepted wisdom that owning NASA-sourced
>>> samples is a no-no.  When the US government handed out "moon rocks" to
>>> other governments, some of these eventually found their way onto the
>>> private market.  There was at least one publicized case where the
>>> sample was confiscated and returned.
>>>
>>> So whether it is legal or not, the current modus-operandi of law
>>> enforcement is to harass and prosecute owners of such samples as soon
>>> as they are discovered.
>>>
>>> In the case where a NASA intern stole a sample from JSC, he was
>>> prosecuted and rightfully so.  But, I do not agree with people being
>>> harassed or arrested for trading tiny pieces of tape with a milligram
>>> of dust on them - that is silly and a waste of taxpayer money.
>>>
>>> You won't get any argument from me about that.  :)
>>>
>>> Law-enforcement is not infallible and the make mistakes all the time.
>>> Just because someone is arrested for something, doesn't mean it is
>>> illegal.  But, the fact that people are being harassed for this now,
>>> would make me think twice about trading in this material until the
>>> legal questions are resolved.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> MikeG
>>>
>>> PS - nobody is going to lose this debate, because in my case, you are
>>> preaching to the choir!  :)
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Galactic Stone&  Ironworks - Meteorites&  Amber (Michael Gilmer)
>>>
>>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com
>>> Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my
>>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516
>>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone
>>> EOM - http://www.encyclopedia-of-meteorites.com/collection.aspx?id=1564
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> ">  I ask to Michael Gilbert (Galactic Stone), can you tell me exactly
>>> *(Date)*
>>>> *which*  law prohibits individuals to have samples of lunar rocks
>>>> brought by
>>>> NASA."
>>> This is something I would like to know as well, and if anyone can
>>> answer this definitively, I am anxious to hear it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/25/11, Rafael Navarro<rafael.navarro7 at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>> Well ,Michael Blood you can not talk about the speck in your brother's
>>>> eye,
>>>> when you do not see the beam in yours, (the eyes not see to inward).
>>>> I had the suspicion that NASA gave lunar rock samples  (Apollo 11)
>>>> without
>>>> having studied, hize a research about it and wanted to share my findings
>>>> with members of Met-list, but the editors of the  list, censored my
>>>> posts
>>>>   by be suspect   and out of place.
>>>> *Definitely, the ignorance is bold.*
>>>> I ask to Michael Gilbert (Galactic Stone), can you tell me exactly
>>>> *(Date)*
>>>> *which*  law prohibits individuals to have samples of lunar rocks
>>>> brought by
>>>> NASA.
>>>> Or you only repeat those words because you've heard to someone say it?
>>>> Also, you believe that among all the samples collected on the moon only
>>>> arrived two microscopic meteorites?
>>>> You believe everything what others say?
>>>> You know something about it, or also repeat this like a parrot ?
>>>> *Yes in truth, It is terrifying! They are EVERYWHERE!*
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> Rafael Navarro
>>>>
>>>> *PD : *And do not worry about answering;I know that you will  do not.
>>>> I suspect that you are smart enough not to continue a discussion that
>>>> you
>>>> are not sure of winning.
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>> *
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________
>>> Visit the Archives at
>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>> ______________________________________________
>> Visit the Archives at
>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
>> Meteorite-list mailing list
>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>
> ______________________________________________
> Visit the Archives at
> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html
> Meteorite-list mailing list
> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
>