[meteorite-list] Home, Home on La Grange!

From: Sterling K. Webb <sterling_k_webb_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:59:44 -0500
Message-ID: <BB2A1F7D4ACD4EDDB5A8C962BA7E93D9_at_ATARIENGINE2>

Doug,

I believe Anaxagoras was referring to the Anti-Earth,
a body thought possible (in either a geocentric or a
heliocentric system) that was always behind the Sun
from the viewpoint of Earth, hence "never seen by us."
It's an idea that doesn't go away (like it should):
http://files.ncas.org/condon/text/appndx-e.htm

But it was Pythogoras, the first to call the earth "round"
and not the center of the universe, a word he invented,
BTW: "cosmos" or universe. And he had that Theorem
thingee, too. Yes, the Anti-Earth was his idea... So, he
missed one.

But, when I read your post, Doug, I thought you meant
the Kordylewski clouds --- "large concentrations of dust
that may exist at the L4 and L5 Lagrangian points of the
Earth-Moon system."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kordylewski_cloud

    "The existence of a photometrically confirmable
concentration of dust at the libration points was
predicted by Professor J. Witkowski in 1951.
    The clouds were first seen by Kordylewski in
1956. Between 6 March and 6 April, 1961 he
succeeded in photographing two bright patches
near the L5 libration point. During the observation
time the patches hardly appeared to move relative
to L5...
    In 1967, J. Wesley Simpson made observations
of the clouds using the Kuiper Airborne Observatory.
    The existence of the Kordylewski clouds is still
under dispute. The Japanese Hiten space probe,
which passed through the libration points to detect
trapped dust particles, did not find an obvious
increase in dust levels above the density in
surrounding space..."

The Kordylewski clouds are a very faint phenomenon,
comparable to the brightness of the Gegenschein and,
as the Lagrangian points are unstable, they may be a
random and transient phenomenon. They are reported
to have an angular diameter of up to 6 degrees and to
orbit the Lagrangian points in elipses, when seen. L5
clouds seem to be observed more than L4 coulds.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e0/Lagrange_points_Earth_vs_Moon.jpg

Grrrr! No dust!
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v224/n5219/abs/224571a0.html

Anyone got Sky and Telescope, 22, 63 (1961)? There
are Kordylewski's photos in there.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspaceflight.esa.int%2Fstrategy%2Fpages%2FHome__Events__Why_the_moon__Posters__P12_Laufer.cfm&rct=j&q=kordylewski%20sky%20%26%20telescope&ei=XJ8KTsSgGI2qsALIosGjAQ&usg=AFQjCNFOB0d25_NmBxPsAyX99MoNzDyWpg&sig2=98jwIRBEppaJQdNioVXWdw&cad=rja

More Moons of the Earth:
http://library.thinkquest.org/25401/data/discovery/text/hyp.html?tql-iframe#moon
    "In October 1956, Kordylewski saw, for the first time, a
fairly bright patch in one of the two positions. It was not small,
subtending an angle of 2? (i.e. about 4 times larger than the
Moon itself). It also was very faint, only about half as bright as the
notoriously difficult Gegenschein (counterglow - a bright patch
in the zodiacal light, directly opposite to the Sun). In March
and April 1961, Kordylewski succeeded in photographing two
clouds near the expected positions. They seem to vary in
extent, but that may be due to changing illumination. J. Roach
detected these cloud satellites in 1975 with the OSO (Orbiting
Solar Observatory) 6 spacecraft. In 1990, they were again
photographed, this time by the Polish astronomer Winiarski, who
found that they were a few degrees in apparent diameter, that
they "wandered" up to 10? away from the "trojan" point, and that
they were somewhat redder than the zodiacal light."

Photometry didn't find any clouds:
http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/124326.pdf

Kordylewski clouds at the Earth-Sun Lagrangian points?
http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=6228
and
http://science.slashdot.org/story/09/04/10/1224231/STEREO-Spacecraft-To-Explore-Earths-L4-and-L5

Lots of "things" at Lagrangian Points...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_objects_at_Lagrangian_points

The Clouds of Kordylewski? I think they come and go...


Sterling K. Webb
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Kowalski" <damoclid at yahoo.com>
To: "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aim.com>;
<meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases
andmeteoriterecovery)


Doug, I think you missed a key word in my post, "... known ...".

Cheers


--
Richard Kowalski
Full Moon Photography
IMCA #1081
----- Original Message -----
From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: damoclid at yahoo.com; meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Cc:
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:30 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and 
meteoriterecovery)
Richard K says:
"There are no known Earth Trojans."
Hi Richard,
Come on ol' friend, even 2500 years ago Anaxagoras deduced:
"Under the stars are the Sun and Moon, and also certain bodies which 
revolve with them, but are invisible to us."
and we've observed enough meteorites to vindicate him!
The "invisible" he was talking about refers to them being too small to 
have enough light to reflect to be seen. What is the median threshold 
resolution we are talking about nowadays (in mass or diameter) at that 
distance?
Perhaps the points are not a pocket full of horses, but Chincoteague 
Ponies, some used, would be a coupe. Regardless, towing an asteroid back 
to earth wasn't what I had in mind at all. Look, we've even sent 
Stardust to play tennis with comets, in hope of getting some micron 
sized particles, while ignoring the voluminous information guaranteed to 
be on the shelves of these libration libraries, not in mass, but in 
rubble and dust, a page at a time and conveniently located.
Best wishes
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Kowalski <damoclid at yahoo.com>
To: meteorite list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 28, 2011 5:59 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and 
meteoriterecovery)
________________________________
From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com>
To: etmeteorites at hotmail.com; Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] trips to the Moon (Moon bases and
meteoriterecovery)
You want to go the the nearer Lagrangian Points in plain space between 
the Earth
and Moon. That is where the most fascinating stuff is to be found, 
written in
unaltered stone the genesis of the Moon and plenty more debris to keep
scientists and collectors busy and overworked for the nex 10,000 years!
There are no known Earth Trojans.
--
Richard Kowalski
Full Moon Photography
IMCA #1081
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Received on Wed 29 Jun 2011 12:59:44 AM PDT


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