[meteorite-list] OT transpermia vs. God vs. Science

From: James Sleep <*jsleep_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 19:15:44 -0500 Message-ID: <00cc01cbda01$4eeb3150$ecc193f0$_at_net> · jsleep_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Carl or Debbie Esparza
Meteoritemax
. 
--------------------------------------------
Hi all, sorry that my first post to this group is off topic so to
speak....but I had to comment.  I will keep it short and not create a long
drawn-out logical argument. 
While there may be one, I don't know a philosophy professor that would claim
cold or darkness is a real, substantive reality. That is philosophy 101..
The claim that evil is a substantive reality is a claim created by religion
and is supported by Christians. In fact they name it and claim they can be
possessed by it. So to Christians evil is a very real and substantial thing.
There is a father of the church (St. Augustine Roman Catholic) who argued
that evil is the absence of God, but that is a position Christians do not
really accept. It is not used as an argument to the problem of evil.
Science does not claim that God does not exist. In fact, science cannot and
does not deal with that question at all as it has no empirical data to work
with.
The word "Faith" is problematic but all it means is if you have faith in
something then you believe that something even though you don't have proof
or evidence of its reality, and/or in spite of proof or evidence against its
reality. 
The student asked about thoughts and one's brain and evolution. We can use
evidence in the form of logical, mechanical, and physical data to support
that the teacher has a brain and that thoughts are at least related to
chemical and electrical actions, and that there is plenty of reasons to
believe in evolution. It is all about evidence.
People locked into a religious state of mind are kind of stuck. They cannot
view the world with a clear head. Everything will be seen in light of their
belief system. Not only is it difficult to see beyond their belief system,
there is a warning that they will go to hell if they try. So it is almost
impossible to pull them out. Just look at the Islamic group that ran planes
into the twin towers or the Taliban who blew up the ancient Buddhist statues
in Afghanistan, or even the destruction of the Mayan Codices by Spanish
Monks. Einstein had a terrible problem that shows the difficulty of escaping
a belief system. Despite all his brain power when his notions about God
conflicted with his theory, he gave up his theory. He could not accept the
notion of a probability function.  Probably most of you have heard that
Einstein said something about the idea that God does not throw dice. He was
referring to quantum theory which required a probability function due to the
apparently random quantum flux that occurs at the microcosmic level of the
universe. 
I have to address the issue of believing things we don't know. We all do
that. I believe in certain theorems even though I never did the proofs. I
believe certain men of learning and what they say about the universe. I
believe the road will continue on the other side of the hill. Now the
student may say I have faith in them, but I say no. I merely believe them
because they may be wrong............................that is the difference
between faith and belief.
James Sleep
---- "Rose wrote: 
> Albert Einstein was Jewish, so this was invented or altered.
> David
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Pete Pete
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 10:18 AM
> To: cdtucson at cox.net; meteoritelist meteoritelist
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] OT transpermia vs. God vs. Science
> 
> 
>  
>  
> SNOPES says that this is a bs, invented story:
>  
> http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
> http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp
>  
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:56:47 -0500
> > From: cdtucson at cox.net
> > To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> > Subject: [meteorite-list] OT transpermia vs. God vs. Science
> >
> >
> > I thought this was interesting enough to share here;
> > Just food for thought.
> >
> > > The professor and student are for real!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > You'll be surprised who the student is...they'll tell you at the end.
> > >
> > >
> > > "Let me explain the problem science has with religion."
> > >
> > >
> > > The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then
asks one of his new students to stand.
> > >
> > > 'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes sir,' the student says.
> > >
> > > 'So you believe in God?'
> > >
> > > 'Absolutely '
> > >
> > > 'Is God good?'
> > >
> > > 'Sure! God's good.'
> > >
> > > 'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes'
> > >
> > > 'Are you good or evil?'
> > >
> > > 'The Bible says I'm evil.'
> > >
> > > The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a
moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and
you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes sir, I would.'
> > >
> > > 'So you're good...!'
> > >
> > > 'I wouldn't say that.'
> > >
> > > 'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you
could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.'
> > >
> > > The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He doesn't,
does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he
prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Can you answer that
one?'
> > >
> > > The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor
says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student
time to relax. 'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'
> > >
> > > 'Er..yes,' the student says.
> > >
> > > 'Is Satan good?'
> > >
> > > The student doesn't hesitate on this one.. 'No.'
> > >
> > > 'Then where does Satan come from?'
> > >
> > > The student falters. 'From God'
> > >
> > > 'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil
in this world?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes, sir.'
> > >
> > > 'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes'
> > >
> > > 'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God created
everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the
principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil.'
> > >
> > > Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness? Immorality?
Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?'
> > >
> > > The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'
> > >
> > > 'So who created them ?'
> > >
> > > The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his
question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. Suddenly the
lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is
mesmerized. 'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you believe in
Jesus Christ, son?'
> > >
> > > The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.'
> > >
> > > The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses you use
to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?'
> > >
> > > 'No sir. I've never seen Him.'
> > >
> > > 'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'
> > >
> > > 'No, sir, I have not.'
> > >
> > > 'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus?
Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that
matter?'
> > >
> > > 'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'
> > >
> > > 'Yet you still believe in him?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes'
> > >
> > > 'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say to that, son?'
> > >
> > > 'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'
> > >
> > > 'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the problem science
has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.'
> > >
> > > The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of
His own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? '
> > >
> > > ' Yes.
> > >
> > > 'And is there such a thing as cold?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes, son, there's cold too.'
> > >
> > > 'No sir, there isn't.'
> > >
> > > The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The
room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. 'You can
have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat,
white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called
'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we
can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise
we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body or
object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is
what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy.. Absolute zero (-458 F)
is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to
describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in
thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir,
just the absence of it.'
> > >
> > > Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom,
sounding like a hammer.
> > >
> > > 'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation. 'What is night if it
isn't darkness?'
> > >
> > > 'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence
of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In
reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker, wouldn't you?'
> > >
> > > The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This
will be a good semester. 'So what point are you making, young man?'
> > >
> > > 'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to
start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed.'
> > >
> > > The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. 'Flawed? Can
you explain how?'
> > >
> > > 'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student explains..
'You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad
God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we
can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.' 'It uses
electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood
either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the
fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell me, professor. Do you
teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?'
> > >
> > > 'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,
yes, of course I do.'
> > >
> > > 'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'
> > >
> > > The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes
where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.
> > >
> > > 'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and
cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?'
> > >
> > > The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion
has subsided. 'To continue the point you were making earlier to the other
student, let me give you an example of what I mean.' The student looks
around the room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the
professor's brain?' The class breaks out into laughter. 'Is there anyone
here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so.. So,
according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable
protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.'
'So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?'
> > >
> > > Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his
face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers.
'I Guess you'll have to take them on faith.'
> > >
> > > 'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with
life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?' Now
uncertain, the professor responds, 'Of course, there is. We see it Everyday.
It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in The
multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world.. These
manifestations are nothing else but evil.'
> > >
> > > To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or at least it
does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God.. It is just
like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence
of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man
does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes
when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light.'
> > >
> > > The professor sat down.
> > >
> > > If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your face when
you finished, mail to your friends and family with the title 'God vs.
Science'
> > >
> > > PS: The student was Albert Einstein.
> > >
> > > Albert Einstein wrote the book titled'God vs. Science' in 1921.....
> > >
> > >
> > Carl
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