[meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades
From: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 21:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8CE5F3A1C14C0F8-1C78-3FD62_at_Webmail-d108.sysops.aol.com> Hi Mike, John, List, I was hopiing to stir up the pot a bit and then come back with a comment like, ==> If we were facing off in 1492, give me a real Moorish Damascus forged Vanadium steel Sabre with nanocarbide sharpness forged in a controlled crucible against you and your old rusty Field of Heaven laminated Sword and my first strike would lop off your brittle Campo sword as you realized there was a ring of blood forming around your neck... ;-) Warfare allows no luxuries and that where the individual's weapon can easily reverse the balance of power for those who become to lustfully with the beautiful curves or composition of their weapon ... and forget that there is more than one way to skin a rat. Back in Biblical times, no doubt that meteoritical iron would be a fantastic material vs. some pig iron if that, but credit goes where it is deserved to those Near Eastern or Indians who showed the world and our ancestors a lesson or two in the importance of improved steel. There are many considerations for the performance of a good sword to Kill Bill, and lamination is but one design element and to focus on that to call it Damascus is historically a great insult to the Moguls, Persians and Arabs who developed this technology. Putting a layer with a Widmanstatten figure still in it would only be an invitation to a beheading as the meteoritically inclined knight's head got an aerial view of his body enough for a last amazed remark "My sword split right along the etch pattern - we need to publish this." But the lamination serves a purpose if you have a bunch of crappy steel to work with. If a hard one is brittle but holds a good blade, then an absorbant soft layer need be alternated even though it is impossible to sharpen. Still, if you go to yourt local autoparts store and buy a $10, 50-piece socket and ratchet wrench set made of Chrome-Vanadium steel imported from China you can see how far the steel industry has evolved. Back in Biblical times, no doubt that meteoritical iron would be a fantastic material vs. some pig iron if that, but credit goes where it is deserved to those Near Eastern or Indians who showed the world and our ancestors a lesson or two in the importance of improved steel. Today, this is only of academic interest since steel technology is so well financed and so far advanced, as to not need even need better steel at all in manycases but different more exotic alloys, and for example, the Russian or NATO armies are not too interested in Damascus or other obsolete yet key technological developments which have led us to become us a cooperative technologically driven species more importantly than survival of the strongest individual model .... Damascus steel in its time was like having an iphone compared to your landline adversary. John! Beautiful images to salivate any collector!!!, the ~1621 sabre you mention could not be forged of meteoritic iron or it would have fallen apart. Perhaps it is a Kris process of lamination where the meteorite etch brought out during annealing is part of the intricate finish, but it is likely not Damascus due to the difficultioes of working meteoritic iron. Kindest wishes and thanks - John --- How's this for a link when a meteoric sword was the leading edge of technology, a millenium or two before Damascus: During the Shang Dynasty (16th - 11th Centuiry B.C.), Chinese people began to learn to use iron. The iron-edged bronze sword unearthed at Liujiahe Village in Pinggu, Beijing, is one of the earliest iron-containing objects discovered in China. The iron blade was cast from smelted meteorite iron, and then inlaid into the bronze handle. The sword is testimony to the fact that people had mastered the fairly advanced technique of iron smelting and casting iron with bronze. ref: http://china.org.cn/e-gudai/4.htm Can anyone dig up an image of that one! Doug -----Original Message----- From: Michael Gilmer <meteoritemike at gmail.com> To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com> Cc: dorifry <dorifry at embarqmail.com>; meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; darryl <darryl at dof3.com> Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 7:48 pm Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades Hi Doug and List, Given the varied nature of meteoritic iron, it would seem unsuitable for the production of any product that requires a consistent and/or specific metallurgical process. One iron meteorite might be suitable, but another will not. Introduce silicate inclusions, graphite nodules, and other "contaminants" and you have a recipe for poorly-made Damascus steel. The only way I can see around this would be if an area had a large quantity of meteoritic iron of the same type, such as a big fall like Campo del Cielo, or a giant source like the Hoba iron. Even then, there is obviously some variation in chemistry from one specimen to the next and from one portion of a single specimen to the next. Best regards, MikeG -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- On 10/22/11, MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aim.com> wrote: > "never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a > bazillion made of Damascus steel." > > Hi Darryl and Phil, > > That's not entirely accurate, either. The bizillion are made of > laminated (pattern-welded) steel. The lamination give that layered > look to it. > > The kicker is that the Kris blades really are traditionally supposed to > be made from a laminated sheets of meteoritic iron and other irons, > that get deformed and give that patterned look - almost always curved > unlike unaltered Widmanstatten/Thompson figures and similar to the > current crop of faux Damascus blades being marketed. > > So it is more accurate to say (though there are probably still some > nit-picks): > > "Never once seen a meteoritic iron Damascus Blade, but I've seen about > a bazillion Kris blades that were claimed to be made of Damascus steel." > > The inconsistency is only marketing hype in the knife industry started > by a single knifemaker who just wanted to drum up business with tall > claims in very recent times. So, the rest of the knifemakers joining > the bandwagon for more profits from a simple steel lamination process > that was never high on the difficulty level nor legendary. As a matter > of fact, it was the third time in history the term Damascus was > appropriated. The second time was 100 years ago, when it became > synonymous with "Laminated" for making gun barrels that were real crap > and they went out of business. > > The secretive, mystical aspect of the Damascus steel blades are derived > in the Christian countries from the sharpness and hardness that they > held and vanquished many European warriors during the "Crusades". The > process was lost completely several hundred years ago and probably has > still not been rediscovered because other modern materials are probably > equally good or better (a lot has changed in steelmaking since the iron > age). > > So unless you've been to a museum with ancient or old historical Arabic > or Persian relics, you've probably never seen an authentic Damascus > blade, except the Kris blade-like process that one clever marketeer > invented forty years ago. There is nothing about the millenium and a > half run of Damascus steel that would suggest it used meteoritic iron, > which actually was probably an inferior iron for some true Damascus > fabrication processes. > > As far as we know today from scientific analysis, the secret of > Damascus steel depended on the superior Vanadium containing iron > nuggets from India, (Today there are a wide range of excellent Vanadium > steels, but not during the Crusades). Modern analytical techniques > show the secret has nothing to do with laminations,l but rather that > the old true Damascus process had some excellent metalurgy going on: > Carbon nanotubes and carbide nanowires were formed and held a > sharpening like no peer of its age. > > ...and that, is an authentic Damascus steel knife ... no meteorites > need apply ... and, from a modern point of view, think about the > variation in iron meteorite composition. Damascus was by nature > carefully controlled and swapping out raw materials wouold probably not > be tolerated for an excellent final product. The mimicked Damascus > pattern caused by the lamination in the current crop of knives has > nothing to do with meteorites not anything to do with the properties > that made Damascus steel stand above its peers at the time. It's > special, seemingly mystical "edge" it had at the time, was cause by the > carefully selected and controlled raw materials and the forging process > they underwent, creating on the molecular level alternaing > carbide/nanotube tips. This definitely is not part of the modern crop > of Damascus pattern mimicks. > > Ah, and the first time Damascus steel was appropriated to name a modern > proces was by the blacksmith of Jim Bowie of the famed "Bowie knife" > who perished in the defense of the Alamo at the hands of Mexicans. > Bowie had designed his knife but the clever blacksmith, from New > Jersey, forged it, which was part of its specialty. I posted a movie > about 5-8 years ago here dealing with this subject and the movie. The > movie made the error of saying he rediscovered the Damascus process > (which was reputed to be at the time) and that it was made of the > rediscovered Damascus steel process. The needed to pick one or the > other. I have not seen meteorites being called the source of the Bowie > knife steel from any other place but who jknows when it comes to > legends... > > Kindest wishes > Doug > > > > truen as far as is known > > > -----Original Message----- > From: dorifry <dorifry at embarqmail.com> > To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Sat, Oct 22, 2011 4:46 pm > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades > > > I've never once seen a meteoritic iron kris blade, but I've see about a > bazillion made of Damascus steel. Damascus sort of looks like a > Widmansttaten pattern if you didn't know any better. > > Phil Whitmer > Joshua Tree Earth & Space Museum > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Darryl Pitt" <darryl at dof3.com> > To: "Michael Gilmer" <meteoritemike at gmail.com> > Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:28 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Any experts on meteorite Kiris blades > > >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> That's not quite accurate. Many are made of steel, Damascus steel, > etc. >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 22, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Michael Gilmer wrote: >> >>> I've seen a couple of these for sale on eBay in the past. They were >>> not exactly like the one's in Rob's photos, but they were similar. >>> (if I recall correctly) >>> >>> Rob, if you have physical access to the blades in questions, a quick >>> nickel test should rule in/out a meteoritic origin. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> MikeG >>> -- >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >>> Galactic Stone & Ironworks - Meteorites & Amber (Michael Gilmer) >>> >>> Website - http://www.galactic-stone.com >>> Facebook - http://tinyurl.com/42h79my >>> News Feed - http://www.galactic-stone.com/rss/126516 >>> Twitter - http://twitter.com/galacticstone >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- >>> >>> >>> On 10/22/11, Darryl Pitt <darryl at dof3.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Be very, very careful. >>>> >>>> The stories associated with most krises for sale in Indonesia are >>>> apocryphal. I've heard more fantastic stories---truly extraordinary >>>> tales---before the price drops precipitously during the course of >>>> negotiations. >>>> >>>> The kris is a very important cultural symbol and there are so many >>>> legends >>>> attached to this weapon. My favorite? It was widely believed a > kris >>>> would, >>>> on its own, slide out of its sheath and fly through the sky to > strike >>>> the >>>> enemies of its owner. >>>> >>>> Meteoritic iron? I've heard this a lot----far too often, in > fact---and >>>> I >>>> would be extremely suspicious. >>>> >>>> >>>> Best / darryl >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Oct 22, 2011, at 3:34 PM, Rob Wesel wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello all >>>>> >>>>> I have a friend vacationing who ran across an antique store > selling >>>>> three >>>>> Indonesian blades claiming to be made of "meteoric iron". While I > know >>>>> that if you are going to find a meteorite blade it's gonna be >>>>> Indonesian >>>>> or Mike Miller's, I know very little about what they should look > like. >>>>> If >>>>> the list holds any experts please have a look and weigh in. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.nakhladogmeteorites.com/blades.htm >>>>> >>>>> Thanks >>>>> >>>>> Rob Wesel >>>>> ------------------ >>>>> Nakhla Dog Meteorites >>>>> www.nakhladogmeteorites.com >>>>> www.facebook.com/Nakhla.Dog.Meteorites >>>>> www.facebook.com/Rob.Wesel >>>>> ------------------ >>>>> We are the music makers... >>>>> and we are the dreamers of the dreams. >>>>> Willy Wonka, 1971 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________________________ >>>>> Visit the Archives at >>>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >>>> ______________________________________________ >>>> Visit the Archives at >>>> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >>>> Meteorite-list mailing list >>>> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >>>> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >>>> >> >> ______________________________________________ >> Visit the Archives at >> http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html >> Meteorite-list mailing list >> Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com >> http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > ______________________________________________ > Visit the Archives at > http://www.meteoritecentral.com/mailing-list-archives.html > Meteorite-list mailing list > Meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list >Received on Sat 22 Oct 2011 09:27:49 PM PDT |
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