[meteorite-list] Definitions of types of falls and finds

From: cdtucson at cox.net <*cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com*> Date: Tue, 6 May 2014 16:01:32 -0400 Message-ID: <20140506160132.00XXH.311014.imail_at_fed1rmwml214> · cdtucson_at_meteoritecentral.com

--
Love & Life
---- Mendy Ouzillou <mendy.ouzillou at gmail.com> wrote: 
> I've been thinking about the email Jeff sent out some time back and wanted
> to propose a slightly different set of names and simplify the nomenclature.
> You can see Jeff's original email below. I think we have all struggled with
> defining meteorites that are neither observed falls nor finds and part of
> the reason is that we were conflating too many ideas.
> Observed fall: Observed to fall, either by eyewitnesses or with instruments.
> The event was well documented. Physical evidence associated with the
> collected meteorites is consistent with a fresh fall, or, when collection
> does not occur immediately, the strewn field location (if there is one) and
> appearance taking into account weathering associated with time on the
> ground, may be directly attributed to the fall.
> Correlated fall: No material was found immediately after an observed event,
> but later analysis and physical evidence conclusively points to an observed
> event on a specific date or within a very narrow range of dates.
> Find: Material was found and no event can be conclusively associated with an
> observed event. A find that appears like a fresh fall is still a find if no
> observed event can be associated with it.
> Feedback welcome.
> Mendy Ouzillou
> IMCA8393
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
> Grossman
> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:26 AM
> To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
> 
> I should add: my first two categories are types of falls, whereas the last
> three are types of finds.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On 1/5/2013 8:12 AM, Jeff Grossman wrote:
> > In all seriousness, I have considered refining, or at least qualifying 
> > the definition of "fall." The categories I've considered are these, 
> > and the definitions are first passes:
> >
> > Observed fall: observed to fall, either visually or with instruments, 
> > and collected soon after the event. The event was well documented.
> > Physical evidence associated with the collected meteorites is 
> > consistent with a fresh fall, or, when collection does not occur 
> > immediately, directly points to a fall at the time of the observed event.
> >
> > Unobserved fall: No observations were made of a fall event, but 
> > physical evidence conclusively points to a fall on a specific date or 
> > within a very narrow range of dates.
> >
> > Probable fall: In these cases, there was a well-documented meteor 
> > event with characteristics consistent with a meteorite fall, followed 
> > by the collection of meteorites some time later. There is a strong 
> > likelihood that the meteorite fell in the observed event, but physical 
> > evidence is not fully conclusive.
> >
> > Possible fall: The same situation as a probable fall, but there is 
> > significant doubt about whether the meteorite is connected to the 
> > event or about the reliability of the observations of the event.
> >
> > Doubtful fall: The same situation as a possible fall, but there is a 
> > high degree of doubt.
> >
> > This was all suggested by the circumstances surrounding the Bene?ov
> > (a) and (b) meteorites, which I would have put in the "possible fall" 
> > category, if such a thing existed.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On 1/4/2013 8:57 PM, Michael Farmer wrote:
> >> I find this new attempt to change terminology disturbing. I have 
> >> hundreds of old catalogs from the top museums and dealers from more 
> >> than 200 years ago till today, all of them list falls and finds. None 
> >> of them discuss unobserved falls as an acceptable alternative.
> >> Are we really ready to just accept anything thrown out there, and 
> >> watch as all manner of BS is used to discredit hundreds of years of 
> >> accepted terminology?
> >> My private collection focuses on witnessed falls, with date and time 
> >> and science to back it up.
> >> I am not interested in another group which would include every 
> >> meteorite ever to have fallen, since they did actually all fall at 
> >> some point.
> >> Well, I guess Anne can delete her birthday fall calendar page since 
> >> now we can simply put every NWA on any date you choose to believe it 
> >> might have possibly fallen:).
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Farmer
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPad
> >>
> >> On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:47 PM, "Mike Bandli" <fuzzfoot at comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If a meteorite falls from the sky and no one is there to hear it, 
> >>> does it make a sound?
> >>>
> >>> ;^]
> >>>
> >>> ----------------------------------------------
> >>> Mike Bandli
> >>> Historic Meteorites
> >>> www.HistoricMeteorites.com
> >>> and join us on Facebook:
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> >>> IMCA #5765
> >>> -----------------------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and 
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> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> >>> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of 
> >>> hall at meteorhall.com
> >>> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 5:36 PM
> >>> To: Anne Black
> >>> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com; valparint at aol.com
> >>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
> >>>
> >>> Right, Anne. That is why they are referred to as a "Fall" or a "Find".
> >>> Concise!
> >>> Cheers, Fred Hall
> >>>
> >>>> Every single meteorite ever found on Earth is necessarily the 
> >>>> result of a fall, they are not native to Earth. The only difference 
> >>>> is that some falls are seen, witnessed, and some, the vast majoriry,
> are not.
> >>>>
> >>>> So calling them Observed or Unobserved falls is logical. That is 
> >>>> what happened to all of them.
> >>>> That is simple reality.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Anne M. Black
> >>>> www.IMPACTIKA.com
> >>>> IMPACTIKA at aol.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> tFrom: hall <hall at meteorhall.com>
> >>>> To: Michael Farmer <mike at meteoriteguy.com>
> >>>> Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>; valparint 
> >>>> <valparint at aol.com>
> >>>> Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 6:13 pm
> >>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>    An "unobserved fall" is two words to describe the one word that 
> >>>> has been used for a century, "Find". The one word "Find" is good 
> >>>> enough for the Catalogue of Meteorites, it was good enough for 
> >>>> Harvey Nininger, and it is what I shall always use. Keep it concise.
> >>>> Regards, Fred Hall
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> That would make sense for say New Orleans, where a stone went 
> >>>> through a
> >>>>> house and no one in their right mind would suggest that it did not
> >>>> fall at
> >>>>> that time say between 8 am and 4 pm when there was no hole in the
> >>>> house,
> >>>>> yet it was not seen to fall.
> >>>>> An old rock found in a field does not suggest anything about fall
> >>>> date. So
> >>>>> it is a find, something never really argued against until now?
> >>>>> It has crust which can suggest it is not thousands of years old, 
> >>>>> most
> >>>> of
> >>>>> our Springwater meteorites have black and blue crust but 
> >>>>> nevertheless
> >>>> it
> >>>>> is a find.
> >>>>> Michael Farmer
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:28 AM, <valparint at aol.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> An "unobserved fall" is, well, a fall that was not observed, in 
> >>>>>> contradistinction to a fall that was observed. The terminology of 
> >>>>>> the Meteoritical Bulletin Database is "Observed fall: no".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The information being conveyed is NOT that the meteorite fell but
> >>>> that
> >>>>>> the fall was not observed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In general, the questions about falling and finding are:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1) was the fall observed?
> >>>>>> 2) if so, when was it observed?
> >>>>>> 3) if not, is there any guesstimate of when it fell?
> >>>>>> 4) regardless of weather it was observed or not, when was it 
> >>>>>> actually found?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Paul Swartz
> >>>>>> MPOD webmaster
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What is an "unobserved fall"? Every meteorite fell at some 
> >>>>>>> point. I have thousands of unobserved falls in my collection.
> >>>>>>> Michael Farmer
> >>>>> ______________________________________________
> >>>>>
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