[meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery

From: Paul Gessler <cetuspa_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2016 10:47:14 -0800
Message-ID: <039779ED8C8943D39CC5D6C339CEB929_at_paulPC>

Count Deiro

Sir, you have offended my pc sensitivity!
The politically correct terminology should be:
(....more fruit cakes than a Gerperson bakery)

Paul G






-----Original Message-----
From: Count Deiro via Meteorite-list
Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 9:39 AM
To: MEM ; Ann Cain ; Met-List
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery

Hi All,

You gotta love the List....It produces more fruit cakes than a German
bakery.

Count Deiro
IMCA 3536 MetSoc



-----Original Message-----
>From: MEM via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>Sent: Jan 16, 2016 12:22 AM
>To: Ann Cain <Gfndit at hotmail.com>, Met-List
><meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
>
>Hello Glyn-- Giving your claim all advantages with a cursory review: Using
>your 0.22 cubic meter figure and putting in the highest measured martian
>density of 3.48 gr per cc, I get 76kg launch weight and 38 Kg ( assuming
>50% ablation by weight) landing under perfect conditions. My max weight
>from the data i did have in my head, 28-32kg was not far off but not to
>the order of magnitude difference-- it still does not add up to 800lbs.
>The total weight is immaterial in one sense as to date there have been no
>"meteorite showers" of martian material. The chaos of an impact, in my
>mind, would not produce a coherent stream of meteoroids which would remain
>together for the several hundred thousand up to millions orbits it takes
>for martian material to arrive on earth. Paired finds are consistent with
>atmospheric breakup supporting a single original mass.
>
>I saw your extensive mineralogy and you may in fact have a meteorite-- or
>impactiite but, I did not see where the mineral composition nor noble gases
>plotted amongst plots of the entire range of meteorites. I don't know who
>the keeper of data is for those plots but you could still plot yours on the
>master graph. (I may have lots of stray data in my head but that isn't one
>of them).
>
>I think that the way you seem to misdirect technical answers and the way
>what you do claim what you do, is buried amongst irrelevant comparisons
>that lend skepticism to your report thus far. May I say that much of your
>response is filled with irrelevant comparisons and non sequitur
>conclusions. Apollo rocks have nothing to do with validating your claims.
>
>If I unserstand, you did some of the mineralogy and sent some off for
>analysis, but you won't name or revel any professional meteorist nor
>geo-chemist nor anyone else accredited who has either reviewed your work or
>through their own study. Yes or no? If so, what prevents you from
>releasing it? What is the shock stage if you know it?
>
>Elton
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: Ann Cain via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>To: Met-List <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2016 2:05 AM
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
>
>
>
>Met List,
>
>
>I appreciate honest debate. I appreciate respect. The personal attacks need
>to stop. I will never respond in kind.
>
>Do you all not know the Met List policies?
>
>General List Policies (i.e. The Rules)
>
> 1. Posts need to relate in some way to meteorites.
> 2. Be courteous and professional at all times.
> 3. No Personal Attacks.
>
>...
>
>I have not attacked the scientific community in anyway. I'm a part of it.
>I'm just exposing that unethical behavior can happen behind the scenes at
>times. I'm talking about a few individuals only. The greater amount of
>scientists and technicians I worked with were very professional and are
>wonderful people to work with.
>
>First I would like to respond to Elton who emailed me off-list. Elton you
>are incorrect. It is possible to have a mass impact eject/launch off of
>Mars to a diameter of approx. 22.0m, perhaps melted, but with oblique
>impacts they can launch off the surface solid. The TKW of my discovery is
>greater than the mass of Moon rocks we brought back during the all the
>Apollo missions, which is approx. 382.0kg of mass. My discovery isn't a
>single mass but many fragments from a heterogeneous igneous rock mass that
>was impact ejected/launched off the surface of Mars, or just below the
>surface of Mars. The largest masses of the fragments are larger than
>Zugami. It is mostly extrusive igneous rock from Mars.
>
>See pg.337
>
>Impact and Explosion Crater Ejecta, Fragment Size, and Velocity
>http://web.gps.caltech.edu/~sue/TJA_LindhurstLabWebsite/ListPublications/Papers_pdf/Seismo_1314.pdf
>
>
>You all need to educate yourself regarding a very dark historical event
>within our Meteorite community here in the USA, The Old Woman Meteorite. It
>is very true that even one of the most esteemed institutions of science in
>our nation The Smithsonian Institute can get it really really wrong. The
>Golden Rule is to treat others as you would like to be treated. Geologist
>Joe De Kehoe gets the whole story very right. I would recommend buying his
>book, The Silence of the Sun. Unfair and unjust laws are simply no law at
>all. It's lawlessness. There is a higher law of fairness and justice. You
>can not ignore the original discoverer. This World Record Mars Discovery
>will benefit the People. It's the People's National treasure. The People
>are to benefit. I've said that all along and will continue to do so. I'm
>doing the right thing.
>
>I know a greater law ...
>
>Psalm 24:1 NLT
>"A psalm of David. The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it. The world
>and all its people belong to him."
>
>
>Geologist Joe De Kehoe writes the entire story:...
>Chapter One, The Old Woman Meteorite, The story and the controversy that
>resulted from the discovery and removal of the second largest meteorite
>ever found in the U.S.
>http://gfoundit-mars.com/owm3word.docx
>
>
>
>Glyn Howard
>
>
>
>________________________________________
>From: Count Deiro <countdeiro at earthlink.net>
>Sent: Friday, January 15, 2016 9:59 AM
>To: Gmail; Ann Cain; Met-List
>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
>
>Mendy and All,
>
>I have a queasy feeling in the pit of my stomach. My nose is twitching and
>I smell an unpleasant odor. Like I'm standing near an outhouse in Colorado.
>
>Count Deiro
>IMCA 3536 MetSoc
>
>
>Message-----
>>From: Gmail via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>Sent: Jan 15, 2016 5:26 AM
>>To: Ann Cain <Gfndit at hotmail.com>, Met-List
>><meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] The US World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery
>>
>>There is no conspiracy except the one you have created to bring some
>>misguided legitimacy to your story and your rocks.
>>
>>You also do an immense disservice to our dedicated scientist and
>>meteoriticists. They have no malicious intent to prejudicially reject your
>>rocks. Their motive is furthering science not protecting the financial
>>interests of dealers and collectors. You are accusing the same group of
>>scientists who in recent years identified new Martian meteorites like
>>Black Beauty. My point is that a new and exciting discovery would not be
>>suppressed because it would benefit the scientist personally and the
>>community at large.
>>
>>If you actually looked at market trends, you would soon discover that
>>prices for Martian Shergottites are falling because of an oversupply. Once
>>you get past the 1 or 2kg the scientific community would EVER need, the
>>rest would only be of concern for the collector community and the price
>>would be set by any number of factors such as but not limited to supply.
>>
>>Finally, I am offended that you refer to Tikkun Olam (repairing or doing
>>good for the benefit of the world). You are doing quite the opposite and
>>what is worse doing so for ego and personal benefit. When Yom Kippur
>>comes, I can only hope that you will be honest with yourself, atone for
>>lashon hara (derogatory speech) and move on.
>>
>>Respectfully,
>>
>>Mendy Ouzillou
>>
>>On Jan 15, 2016, at 1:59 AM, Ann Cain via Meteorite-list
>><meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Meteorite List,
>>
>>
>>Recall:
>>Both my sister Ann Cain (who opened the email account) and I, Glyn Howard,
>>use the same email account:
>>
>>Ann Cain, Glyn Howard
>>gfndit(at)hotmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>This has been a long time coming ... for many years now I have been a
>>reader of the Meteorite List.
>>
>>I know this discovery sounds Wow! Unbelievable. Surreal. Pick your
>>adjective. But it is what is is. All the physical empirical evidences
>>prove it. I'm not in fear of re-confirmation. I welcome it. I know what it
>>is. It's all repeatable (empirical).
>>
>>I appreciate well-known PhD members from the Meteorite List who have
>>contacted me off-line. I will respond. Please give me time.
>>
>>
>>The evidence for the typical Mars meteorite key type specimens for this
>>discovery:
>>
>>GSA and GSB
>>
>>http://gfoundit-mars.com/TheEvidence.html
>>
>>http://gfoundit-mars.com/TheEvidenceGSA.html
>>
>>http://gfoundit-mars.com/TheEvidenceGSB.html
>>
>>
>>The Gallery of US World Record Mars Meteorite specimens:
>>
>>http://gfoundit-mars.com/GalleryOfImages.html
>>
>>
>>I will be putting-up/finishing the gallery of World Record Mars meteorite
>>specimens by this Passover.
>>
>>
>>
>>I do not want to hurt anyone's professional reputation. I'm not a mean or
>>vengeful person. The full complete back story and certain people's
>>identities will remain private. Just know there is a private history in
>>the background of this incredible discovery and full story. Several very
>>well known PhDs at Universities in the meteoritics community, who are
>>meteorite analysts, members of the Meteoritcal Society, and perhaps at
>>times over the years have even posted here on the Meteorite List, have
>>held some of these specimens in their hands, have done tests. They know. I
>>knew they were meteorites before I came to them. I knew that they were
>>achondrites. However, at the time I couldn't prove the parent body. I
>>didn't know how.
>>
>>The moment I wasn't willing to share or reveal the discovery site is the
>>moment the road-blocks, the walls, the disinformation began toward me.
>>(Extrusive igneous Dacite, an evolved lava, is not a sedimentary rock!
>>Lol.) We've seen this kind of behavior in the meteoritcs community before.
>>It's nothing new, sadly. This is a dark history of the meteoritics world
>>unfortunately. How many very rare important discoveries have been lost to
>>the world of science and to mankind because those in research and academia
>>have played unethical games of gate-keeping and have refused to just do
>>their job and just do pure science and do the analysis honestly and
>>ethically without games, without gate-keeping, without attempting to
>>wrestle from the discoverer the original discovery site? The discoverer
>>has a right to withhold the discovery site to guard their discovery and
>>its full value, and to protect it. How many people over the many years
>>couldn't persevere against this wall, this unethical gate-k
e
>e
>> ping because they didn't have the prerequisite skills or knowledge and
>> they weren't able to realize that they were lied to or purposefully fed
>> disinformation, and as a result had to walk away and give up, with an
>> incredible treasure of scientific knowledge and wealth in their hand? It
>> could of been very different. It could have been a very cooperative
>> process of discovery for everyone.
>>
>>The original discoverer has rights. I've said it before , and I'll keep
>>saying it ...
>>
>>It takes discoverers to make scientific discoveries. Doing science and
>>making scientific discoveries is not a crime. There is a right to protect
>>discoveries and intellectual property.
>>
>>
>>"Contrary to their public image, scientists are normal, flawed human
>>beings. They are as capable of prejudice, covetousness, pride,
>>deceitfulness, etc., as anyone."
>>-- David Weatherall, "Conduct Unbecoming," American Scientist (Vol.93,
>>January-February 2005), p.73
>>http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/conduct-unbecoming
>>
>>
>>As it turns out I'm rather glad it happened the way it did. Nothing like
>>purposeful road-blocks, gate-keeping, and disinformation thrown at me to
>>motivate me to learn to how to do it myself. As the old adage goes, if you
>>want something done right you have to do it yourself. The Earth Sciences
>>are my background. I have the prerequisite skills. It took time but I did
>>it. I'm still learning. I never stop learning. I didn't do it in a vacuum.
>>I had much help and assistance along the way, from very good, professional
>>scientists and technicians who were very ethical and very knowledgeable
>>and very helpful, and then they did their assigned jobs very
>>professionally and willingly. One day when the story can be told
>>completely in detail I will certainly call out personally all those who
>>helped me. The others who didn't, I will anonymously thank for motivating
>>me to learn meteoritics and to learn to do it on my own. I have enjoyed
>>the scientific process immensely. Much more to come. And I c
a
>n
>> prove what I know.
>>
>>Why when making the discovery of meteorites in the field, why then give
>>away the scientific analysis and identification process to another? Why
>>not learn how to do it for yourself so that your knowledge of the science
>>of meteoritics increases? Why give away that joy of this discovery
>>process? Sure I understand that many can't do it or perhaps they aren't
>>interested in the whole scientific process, but I am. Why not go after the
>>full credit for the full discovery -- from the field, to the lab, all the
>>way to the publication? Sure there are tests I cannot do, others will do
>>these tests afterwards. However, it doesn't change the fact that I made
>>this WR meteorite field discovery, and in the lab I proved they are
>>meteorites, proved the petrology, and then proved the Parent Body of
>>origin for this achondrite meteorite find. The PB is Mars. I was able to
>>prove all of this first. Others will re-confirm second. And others will go
>>much further thereafter. There is an incredible amount of pu
r
>e
>> science about Mars to learn from this full discovery. I would like to be
>> intimately involved in that with my full discovery. I'm sure this US
>> World Record Mars Meteorite Discovery will make many careers for many
>> scientists for a long time to come. NASA Houston Space Command will have
>> to add another adjacent building to Building 31, or at least expand, just
>> to store the new Mars material. I have no doubt about that.
>>
>>If a tree falls in the forest and no-one is there to hear it or witness
>>the event ... guess what it still fell! The event still happened and made
>>a sound. Likewise the discovery of and the science of meteorites
>>(meteoritics) still takes place outside of the formal controlling walls of
>>The Meteoritical Society and official publication in The Bulletin. There
>>will be time for that down the road.
>>
>>When a World Record discovery occurs on this level, you do not give the
>>keys away to the discovery. I have a right to guard my discovery and its
>>full value to help the greatest number of people. It is possible to make
>>incredible discoveries, do incredible and exciting science, and achieve
>>social justice for many many people all at the same time. It's the right
>>thing to do. I intend to do just that. There is a reason this discovery
>>was given to me to make. Tikkun olam. Baruch HaShem.
>>
>>
>>
>>Glyn Howard
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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Received on Sat 16 Jan 2016 01:47:14 PM PST