[meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.

From: Raremeteorites <raremeteorites_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 12:11:07 -0800
Message-ID: <E0A515DE4EDF4CEC86D2DBB64E009594_at_HPDESKTOP>

Federal rules and regulations are laws.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Mulgrew" <mikestang at gmail.com>
To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.


> Not a law. Thank you.
>
> -Michael in so. Cal.
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>> Exact wording from BLM website:
>>
>>
>>
>> Those interested should contact the appropriate BLM office to learn
>> details
>> for their area of interest.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can meteorites casually collected from public lands be bartered or sold?
>>
>>
>>
>> Casual collection of meteorites from public lands is only for an
>> individual's personal use. Sale or barter is considered commercial use.
>> A
>> permit must be issued for commercial activities and fees will be
>> collected,
>> including a purchase price based on a unit price or the percentage of
>> fair
>> market value, and a reclamation fee, if required.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 11:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>
>>
>>> Adam,
>>>
>>> Please cite me (and the rest of the list) the law by order and
>>> section. "I saw it in a book" doesn't mean jack or shit to me.
>>>
>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A federal law is on the books about meteorites found on public land are
>>>> not
>>>> to used for commercial purposes. A BLM agent working the Pahrump,
>>>> Nevada
>>>> area showed us this law in a book he pulled from his truck in the field
>>>> after Guido Diero asked to see the laws governing meteorites. This is
>>>> after
>>>> the agent questioned our team members individually to try and catch us
>>>> with
>>>> leading questions like "how much are they worth?, how many have you
>>>> sold?"
>>>> and so on. Our team individually answered appropriately that they have
>>>> no
>>>> commercial value whatsoever since they cannot be sold and that the real
>>>> value is scientific.
>>>>
>>>> Future generations may remember our generation as the one that screwed
>>>> everything up by publicly placing a monetary value on meteorites and
>>>> attracting the attention of unelected federal and state lawmakers. The
>>>> Great Late Richard Norton warned this would happen decades ago.
>>>>
>>>> Adam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Mulgrew"
>>>> <mikestang at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Raremeteorites" <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>
>>>> Cc: "Meteorite List" <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2016 9:55 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except that there are no laws concerning meteorites and the infamous
>>>> "BLM order" expired Sep. 30, 2013.
>>>>
>>>> Like Larry wrote previously, the permit and the process was a joke - a
>>>> series of hoops to be jumped through and when I got to the last hoop
>>>> they kept moving it further away. I don't think they expected anyone
>>>> to even make it as far as I did.
>>>>
>>>> We don't need to worry about the first American Lunar, it will 100% be
>>>> found on private property.
>>>>
>>>> -Michael in so. Cal.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with what you said about the laws not being enforced but they
>>>>> are
>>>>> still on the books and most likely will never come off. I have not
>>>>> been
>>>>> hassled recently and the last time was in the same period as Met-Men.
>>>>> Apparently the BLM thought meteorites were lying around like Easter
>>>>> eggs
>>>>> and
>>>>> people were becoming rich from them so they needed more laws to
>>>>> protect
>>>>> people from making any form of profit. There is also no statue of
>>>>> limitations on federal laws so when somebody finds that North American
>>>>> Lunar, they can go back in time to bolster their case.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:22 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Adam,
>>>>>
>>>>> What I said is true. Unenforced laws are meaningless. A warning or
>>>>> whatever. really doesn't add up to anything of substance, and without
>>>>> actual
>>>>> charges or at least a ticket, it's just words.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm guessing, only guessing, the incidents you mentioned happened
>>>>> during,
>>>>> or just after the peak of the" Met Men" series, when the BLM was on a
>>>>> mission to keep us from making all that 'easy money'. I'd bet those
>>>>> same
>>>>> officers watching eBay have tired of the activity and moved on to
>>>>> bigger
>>>>> fish long ago. Not much to get uptight about on eBay regarding
>>>>> American
>>>>> meteorites "poached" from state or federal land. It wouldn't take long
>>>>> for
>>>>> them to figure out that monitoring eBay is a nonstarter, not enough
>>>>> money to
>>>>> merit the effort. The crater is the exception but that's a whole other
>>>>> topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> I spend a lot of time in the field, thousands of hours, and I have
>>>>> hard
>>>>> core meteorite hunting buddies pounding the ground for thousands of
>>>>> hours
>>>>> per year without incident. Every single officer I've come into contact
>>>>> with
>>>>> was aware of what I was doing and never once have I had an issue. Some
>>>>> day
>>>>> if we ever get together we can share some stories.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as artifacts and fossils go you are correct, but only to a
>>>>> point.
>>>>> You can surface collect in most areas as far as I know. I can pick up
>>>>> fossils all day long, no one cares until I find 'Sue'. The same will
>>>>> hold
>>>>> true for meteorites, no one is gonna care until I recover the first
>>>>> North
>>>>> American Lunar.
>>>>>
>>>>> The heat has cooled off. Relax,, Smile and go find some rocks bro. : )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>>
>>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 7:02 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wish what you said was true. Our entire group was hassled around
>>>>> the
>>>>> Pahrump area in Nevada and twice in California. Eight of our team
>>>>> members
>>>>> were threatened (warned) and I know others on the List who have been
>>>>> hassled
>>>>> as well. Two agents based out Barstow went as far as saying they know
>>>>> what
>>>>> is being sold on eBay. We were told that some public land is
>>>>> designated
>>>>> as
>>>>> heritage or areas of areas of critical concern which are completely
>>>>> off
>>>>> limits while metal detectors cannot be used in other areas. I cannot
>>>>> find
>>>>> any source which lists these areas so an agent can determine this in
>>>>> field
>>>>> so be careful. Just ask artifact and fossils hunters what happened
>>>>> with
>>>>> their once-fine avocation including the fellow who found "Sue" the
>>>>> dinosaur.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Atkins" <thetoprok at aol.com>
>>>>> To: <raremeteorites at centurylink.net>;
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 4:38 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Adam, All,
>>>>>
>>>>> This may be true but it is very rarely if ever enforced, rendering the
>>>>> laws
>>>>> meaningless. BLM got all excited a couple years ago but it came to
>>>>> nothing,
>>>>> ask Michael Mulgrew how his application went. It's a joke. The people
>>>>> enforcing the laws of our wild lands have better things to do than
>>>>> hassle
>>>>> rock hounds. In my sixteen years of hunting and occasional selling
>>>>> I've
>>>>> never heard of, or experienced trouble. In fact, I've encountered law
>>>>> enforcement of all types while in the field, told them exactly what I
>>>>> was
>>>>> doing, talked money and everything, and all they say is "Good luck!
>>>>> Have
>>>>> a
>>>>> great day!"
>>>>>
>>>>> Sell your rocks if you want, business as usual.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>> Larry Atkins
>>>>>
>>>>> IMCA # 1941
>>>>> Ebay alienrockfarm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Raremeteorites via Meteorite-list
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> To: meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Mon, Jan 18, 2016 3:38 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with everything you stated with the exception of response 2
>>>>> where
>>>>> you state private citizens can profit from meteorite finds here in the
>>>>> United States. It is against federal and most state laws to use
>>>>> meteorites
>>>>> found on public land for commercial purposes meaning that the finder
>>>>> is
>>>>> not
>>>>> allowed to sell anything they find. Private citizen are prohibited
>>>>> from
>>>>> making a profit without a permit which will never be issued.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
>>>>> recovery
>>>>> of
>>>>> meteorites,
>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
>>>>> material
>>>>> from a
>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
>>>>> follows
>>>>> that the total
>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>>>>> just
>>>>> the
>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>>>>> fall
>>>>> is obviously
>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>>> terrestrial
>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
>>>>> radioisotopes
>>>>> have
>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matson, Rob D. via Meteorite-list"
>>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 12:12 PM
>>>>> Subject: [meteorite-list] Case study: Lake Eyre meteorite vs. U.S.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ian,
>>>>>
>>>>> Since you brought up the Creston fall, presumably as a comparison
>>>>> example
>>>>> against
>>>>> current Australian state policies, I feel some counter-commentary is
>>>>> appropriate.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Creston is a example of where things went a bit pair shaped in my
>>>>>> mind
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> science.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, Creston was really no stranger than Sutter's Mill,
>>>>> Novato,
>>>>> Battle Mountain,
>>>>> Mifflin or Ash Creek. Science has been well served by all of these
>>>>> falls.
>>>>>
>>>>>> USA had a private network of cameras setup that captured the
>>>>>> fireball,
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> private individual
>>>>>> and some others extracted that meteorite, the first piece(s) was then
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> sold. Finally it
>>>>>> was sold for a ridiculous price. Not illegal or immoral......just not
>>>>>> ideal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think what you are getting at is that only a small fraction of each
>>>>> of
>>>>> these falls made
>>>>> it into the hands of researchers. There are a couple points to
>>>>> consider:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) How much material do researchers really need to extract the
>>>>> majority
>>>>> of
>>>>> pertinent
>>>>> scientific data from a fall? Sure, if you had infinite time you'd love
>>>>> to
>>>>> have all of it since
>>>>> the individual meteorites from a fall are not necessarily homogenous.
>>>>> (Case
>>>>> in point:
>>>>> Almahata Sitta). But balanced against this is the question of how much
>>>>> more
>>>>> you're
>>>>> going to learn by analyzing all of the stones from an L6 fall.
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) If private citizens were prohibited from profiting from the
>>>>> recovery
>>>>> of
>>>>> meteorites,
>>>>> would you expect a negative impact on the quantity of recovered
>>>>> material
>>>>> from a
>>>>> new fall? I think this is undeniable, and therefore it certainly
>>>>> follows
>>>>> that the total
>>>>> mass deposited with accredited institutions would suffer. And it's not
>>>>> just
>>>>> the
>>>>> quantity, it's the quality. A meteorite recovered within 24 hours of a
>>>>> fall
>>>>> is obviously
>>>>> more scientifically valuable than one recovered a month later, when
>>>>> terrestrial
>>>>> weathering has altered some rare minerals, and short-lived
>>>>> radioisotopes
>>>>> have
>>>>> decayed below the threshold of detectability.
>>>>>
>>>>> (3) Successful meteorite recovery requires a significant skill set AND
>>>>> considerable
>>>>> expenditures of time and money. In the U.S., I expect that more than
>>>>> 95%
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> annual resources made available through government grants to recover
>>>>> meteorites
>>>>> goes to ANSMET. I've spent thousands of unpaid hours on the analysis
>>>>> of
>>>>> nearly
>>>>> all U.S. falls that have occurred in the last 15 years, as well as a
>>>>> number
>>>>> of falls
>>>>> outside America, and have devoted a not insignificant amount of time
>>>>> and
>>>>> money
>>>>> traveling to many of these places to recover meteorites. On each of
>>>>> these
>>>>> expeditions I tend to encounter the same couple dozen of dedicated
>>>>> individuals --
>>>>> names that would all be familiar to anyone on the Meteorite List. On
>>>>> occasion I have
>>>>> seen other scientists "in the field," but I suspect in most cases it
>>>>> was
>>>>> on
>>>>> their
>>>>> own dime and not in an official paid capacity. Meteoriticists are paid
>>>>> to
>>>>> analyze
>>>>> meteorites, not run around the country recovering them.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now in Australia, we do have an likely issue of finds being hidden (
>>>>>> old
>>>>>> falls and
>>>>>> cold finds) due to our state laws. However this material will just
>>>>>> add
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the 50,000
>>>>>> stones we need to know more about. Where these laws are a benefit is
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> our DFN etc detects a fall, scientists (not private hunters looking
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> profit or cost
>>>>>> recovery) will go out grab the stone and bring it back!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps in Australia this happens. I have not seen evidence that this
>>>>> is
>>>>> the
>>>>> case
>>>>> in the U.S. Researchers have access to the same information that I
>>>>> do:
>>>>> Doppler
>>>>> radar, seismic networks, all-sky cameras, internet posts, the AMS
>>>>> website
>>>>> and
>>>>> a dozen other resources. Nothing other than time and funding is
>>>>> stopping
>>>>> them
>>>>> from competing with private citizens.
>>>>>
>>>>>> We will know where it came from, where it landed, who found it, what
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> where it will stay exactly. With much more than just a classification
>>>>>> but,
>>>>>> rare orbit
>>>>>> data - which is contributing greatly to mapping our solar system and
>>>>>> more!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, we got all of that on both Sutter's Mill and Creston, in spite
>>>>> of
>>>>> the
>>>>> problems
>>>>> of private land ownership and considerably harder searching conditions
>>>>> than
>>>>> the
>>>>> almost ideal surfaces of the Australian outback. So both systems can
>>>>> work.
>>>>> I
>>>>> just
>>>>> think the current U.S. laws favor a higher success rate than in
>>>>> Australia
>>>>> because
>>>>> they (at least currently) provide enough incentive to boost the
>>>>> people-hours
>>>>> that get devoted to each fall.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>> ______________________________________________
>>>>>
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>>>>> the
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>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>
>>
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>
Received on Wed 20 Jan 2016 03:11:07 PM PST