[meteorite-list] Another warning re sales to Italy

From: dean bessey <themeteoriteshop_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 23:33:16 +0000 (UTC)
Message-ID: <108620918.6485697.1469575996938.JavaMail.yahoo_at_mail.yahoo.com>

Well Joachim yes one would normally use common sense and agree with you.
When I stopped sending to Italy 7 or 8 or so years ago I kept track and had 7 of the previous 10 packages to Italy lost in the mail and had to deal with a paypal chargeback (And some negative feedbacks on ebay). I figured that 7 of ten cancelled out the benefit of lost sales so I stopped shipping to Italy.
I never sent another package to Italy until about two years ago when this Davide Urbinati person emailed me wondering why I don't send to Italy and that it as safe to send him stuff. I agreed to the sale and sent him the $300 worth of Bensour via Registered mail with a tracking number.
At the same time I thought "This is silly - blocking all those potential Italian customers from bidding because of a few losses in the mail 5 or 10 years ago. So I unblocked all of Italy and let Italians buy from me again. Over the next several months (Plus Davide Urbinati's theft of my Bensour) three of the four packages that I sent to Italy resulted in a paypal chargeback. And not one of them sent me an email before filing the chargeback with paypal. Like shopping mall owners having to deal with shoplifting you generally just write it off as paypal always refunds the money so I again just blocked Italy from my auctions.
Normally I get maybe 3 or 4 chargebacks a year and I sell thousands of items a year on ebay. So even now I no longer accept bids from people in Italy.
This theft of the $300 worth of Bensour is memorable and a bit of a sore point with me because its the largest ever loss through a paypal chargeback that I have ever had and it was after I made a decision to never send stuff to Italy again. I almost blame Davide Urbinati for the following three losses from ebay sales not related to him for the following 3 ebay chargebacks to other Italy bidders.

So yes your comment that "Italy has more than 60 Million people. Most are honest and kind." should be correct (I really loved Italy the couple times that I have been there and so want to go back) but there is a statistically significant issue with sending mail to Italy. You will find that its not just me but many ebay sellers wont send stuff to Italy so I am not the only ebay seller with an unusual amount of problems with mail to Italy. The only thing that I can figure is that there must be a bunch of mafia gangs preying on mail sellers as I have a very hard time believing that the Italian post office is that bad and loses such a huge amount of mail. I don't know why so many mailed packages to Italy results in losses but for some reason they do.

But for now I don't generally send mail to Italy.


On Tue, 26/7/16, joachim via Meteorite-list <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another warning re sales to Italy
 To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
 Received: Tuesday, 26 July, 2016, 8:05 PM
 Italy has more than 60 Million
 people. Most are honest and kind. Maybe?
 you have problems getting money via a lawywer
 and a court but it is?
 the same when I
 sell something to the US ( or Japan or to the moon )
 To say not to sell something to italy is if I
 would say all New?
 Yorkers or Inhabitants
 of california are gangsters. Just check every?
 person, mail or phone but please do not
 generalize in such a way.
 Greetings from Germany ( where are also nice
 people, thick ones, thin?
 ones, idiots,
 intelligent people and all other kind of humang beings. )
 Zitat von Michael Blood via Meteorite-list?
 <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>:
> Hi Doug,
>? ? ? ???I am glad to hear
 your dealings with this individual have been
> Positive. I cannot say the same. However,
 after denying he refused
> To pay the
 shipment (this sounds like a refusal to me:
> " So I must pay
 110$ for shipment... More other 150 or more for Italian
> custom with fedex..
 No is impossible pay so much for Henbury.
> Sorry
> Davide"
>? ? ?
 ???he finally did send me almost all the
 remainder of the shipping
> cost.
>? ? ? ???I still will never
 sell anything to anyone in Italy again due to all
> the reports on their postal system and on
 individuals, including this
> One (see
 Bessey post).
>? ? ?
 ???Again, happy your dealings have been more
>? ? ?
> On 7/24/16 4:28 PM, "MexicoDoug"
 <mexicodoug at aol.com>
>> Thanks
 Captain B,
 As we say, "A bad negotiation is better than a good
>> 99% your customer is not the one you
 thought.? That suspicion is?
 hurting you.
>> You can Google the
 customer and find out one by his name has done a?
>> couple of
 exhibitions for Emilia-Romagna, lectures and belongs to a
 local astronomical
>> society, gives
 advice on meteorites even including one case where?
>> there was a
 shipping question in which his reply was to work with the
 Seller to resolve
>> it.? Try one
 more time, maybe a show of goodwill above and beyond what
>> required offer to split the $60,
 and do it face to face by calling?
>> dado_sanna
>> on
 Skype ...
 Next time just collect shipping costs up front ... rather
 than exposing
>> yourself.? I feel
 for your customer's situation, having been in a?
>> similar one
 for many years because of the unfortunate state of the local
 postal service
>> and the rampant
 corruption and pilfering throughout the system.? I hope
>> will reconsider supporting our
 enthusiastic Italian (Brasilian, Russian and
>> Mexican) friends so as to do a part in
 giving them access to reputable
 meteorite sellers.
>> Although your customer's
 expectations were misplaced, it is still a case of
>> misunderstanding that could have been
 prevented - even if that?
>> meant
 two trips
>> to FedEx if it was too
 difficult to calculate the shipping cost yourself.
>> In the case
 of Italy, ask if they can cough up a shipping address to
>> different EU nation to initially
 receive the shipment and from?
 where they can
>> be responsible to
 reship to the Italian address.? The situation is far
>> problematic if the parcel
 arriving in Italy originates in the current
>> Eurozone, vs. the US and Canada which
 at this moment happen to be?
 outside the
>> walls surrounding
 Byzantium.? It will likely get their much faster?
>> too, so it
 can benefit them.
>> While this may not make sense to many
 people who take for granted less
 problematical postal services, or don't care about the
 little saintly
>> collector, speaking
 from personal experience and cravings,?
>> sometimes there are
>> specimens that are "must
 have" and being told "NO!? I don't ship to?
>> X" can be
>> a huge depressant.
>> If the
 collector is conscientious about their situation, they can?
>> just adjust
>> their purchases accordingly and save
 up for the moments that are truly
 special, and better yet, get a helping hand from other
 sympathetic European
>> collectors.?
 I responded to this thread because too often I had the?
>> "We don't
>> ship to X", door slammed in my
 face.? It never happened with meteorites but
>> was a problem with larger companies.?
 You did a nice thing, btw, and I don't
>> think you will end up burnt in the end
 since the collector had a
 misunderstanding and I am sure he will want to correct it in
 a positive
>> manner.
>> As for Italy,
 firm cash up front, insurance (U-pic or InsurePost), and
>> registered FC mail rules on
 commercial sales to see what's permitted and
>> what's not ...
>> Kindest
>> Doug
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Blood <mlblood at cox.net>
>> To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>;
 Meteorite List
>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Sun, Jul 24, 2016 2:31 am
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Another
 warning re sales to Italy
>> Hi Doug,
>>? ?
 ? ???Thanks for the kind words. However, I have
 saved all
>> The emails and believe
 me, there was absolutely no confusion
>> Re shipping - -clarified clearly
 (twice) that if Fed EX were
>> less
 than $50 I would refund him the difference and if it
>> were more than $50 he would have to
 agree to paypal me
>> the
>>? ? ?
 ???He stated I should? not have put the
 "real value" on the shipment -
>> AFTER I had sent it - When Fed Ex
 turned out to be more, then
>> He
 complained he would have to pay the import fee and
>> Pay any more for the
>>? ? ?
 ???Kind and gentle is always best and I tried
 that for several
>> Posts to no avail
>>? ? ? ???No,
 this is a clear cut case of being ripped off. I suspect it
>> Our old "friend" as
 his approach is nearly identical and his English
>> Is similarly distorted. But whether it
 is or not the results are identical.
>>? ? ? ???I, too, like to
 think people are basically honest and live up to
>> Their commitments and I do deal with
 people that way and the vast
 Majority of people in the meteorite community are that
>>? ? ? ???Also, I
 do not believe for a second this is "typical of
 Italians" -
>> only two - and
 possibly only one - have/has acted this way. Every
>> Country has both the saintly and the
>>? ? ? ???Good to
 hear from you, Doug,
>>? ? ?
>> On 7/23/16 10:32 PM,
 "MexicoDoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
>>> How discouraging, as if doing what
 you love wasn't already a labor of love.
>>> Your customer appears to be a
 dedicated collector, exhibitor, lecturer, and
>>> dealer (involved with meteorites
 and as using them as raw materials for
>>> selling trinkets and watch dials,
 including to school children).? You could
>>> double-check if it is not a
 miscommunication from your message exchange
>>> defining who was supposed to pay
 for what.? The immediate problem was not
>>> Italy, as much as the expensive,
 secure shipping cost which you understood
>>> was
 to be paid by him as it sounds like he received the
 meteorite and?
>>> you have a
>>> tracking receipt.
>>> Or,
 next time you are in Rimini, stop by this hair salon and go
 collect if
>>> the
>>> friendly approach doesn't pan
 out.? Maybe settle for a seafood?
>>> risotto.? I'd
>>> make an appointment first and
 bring a bottle of wine _at_ (+39)3485447938.? He
>>> really doesn't seem like a
>>> Kindest wishes
>>> Doug
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Michael Farmer via Meteorite-list?
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> To: Michael Blood <mlblood at cox.net>;
 Meteorite Mailing List
>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>> Sent: Sat, Jul 23, 2016 9:37 pm
>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]
 Another warning re sales to Italy
>>> Why
 do people ignore warnings? Italy is notorious for
>>> scams and stolen packages.
>>> Sent
 from my iPad
>>>> On Jul 23, 2016, at 6:36 PM,
 Michael Blood via Meteorite-list
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>? ? ? ? You all may recall
 that several years ago multiple
>>>> Dealers warned against sales
 to Italy. It seams at
>>>> Least
 one buyer was claiming not to have received
>>>> Shipments that were verified,
 not to have received
>>>> Money
 that was sent him, etc.
>>>>? ? ? ? Unfortunately, I
 failed to head warnings about
>>>> Shipping to Italy. A different
 Italian contacted me (Or
>>>> At
 least one using a different name and email) and
>>>> I explained even Registered
 Mail seems to fail to
 guarantee delivery in Italy but I somehow allowed
>>>> him to talk me into a Fed Ex
 shipment of a specimen.
>>>> I
 agreed, providing he send $50 shipping and agree
>>>> to pay any additional amount
 Fed Ex might charge.
>>>>???Perhaps it is the
 same fellow from several years ago
>>>> Using a different name (he was
 so good at that Art could
 Not keep him off the list because he would just join
>>>> Using a different
 name and email). So, beware of:
>>>> "Davide Urbinati"
 <urbinati.davide at gmail.com>
>>>>? ? ? ? Even though I
 scanned the receipt and sent it to him
>>>> He refused to pay the $59.79
 Fed Ex charged me. So, I am
 Out that $.
>>>>? ? ? ? Believe me, I will
 never ship to Italy again.
>>>>? ? ? ? Better luck to all
 of you,
>>>>? ? ? ? Michael
>>>> Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral
 and the
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Received on Tue 26 Jul 2016 07:33:16 PM PDT

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