[meteorite-list] Cost of Moroccan meteorites

From: Michael Blood <mlblood_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 09:44:15 2004
Message-ID: <3B3E141D.3F12_at_home.com>

Hi Bob & list members,
        I have been sitting on my hands for so long it hurts, keeping
OUT of this....seeing it as a "no win" situation for any dealer to
comment on. However, since I am NOT directly involved (I do =

NOT go to Africa and buy meteorites and bring them back here)
I thought SOME degree of objectivity might be afforded me.
        As many of you know, diplomacy is not my strongest suite, =

(nore is spelling! - so bare with me, please) so, I have stayed
in the background as long as I could bare to.
        For those who would like to "skip" what they might consider
"borring" narative, please skip to the last quote of Rob's & my
last commentary. I do belive that addresses the HEART of this =

entire "string" of posts.
        Rob, PLEASE do not take the following personally, but I am going =

to use some quotes from your recent post to point out SOME of the =

attitutes of SOME of the meteorite collectors on the list. I see these
as reflective of an "undertone" of attitudes that do not contribute
to harmonious relationships and, a factor affecting us all, in that
they distract from the overall level of SATISFACTION gained in
collecting meteorites.
        So, again Rob, this is NOT aimed at you and I both apologise for
doing so, and thank you for providing some glaring examples of
ideas, perspectives and attitudes I DO want to address:
         YOU SAY: =

> It's good to hear they got thrown some bones for such a valuable =

> piece. I had forgotten to factor in the labor costs along
> with the cutting loss and donations.
        Regarding this last sentence - 25 to 35% "loss" in cutting =

(depending on the thickness, this can EASILY go to 50% for =

thin slices &though collectorsis WANT "thin" they do NOT want =

to pay 20% to 50% more $ for "thin") This "cost" of cutting is =

just the tip of the iceburg -there are MANY other factors far more =

"costly"to the dealers than THAT. I will not reiterate some of =

the "costs" incurred by dealers since I HAVE listed here in the past.
        YOU SAY:
>Again, the lack of internal representation surprises me. =

>When will we see a savvy businessman heading things up =

>in Morocco, teaching locals to cut, classify and polish? =

        The word "ethnocentrism" means "my culture's values
and ways of doing things is the RIGHT way - other ways
of other culturs are curious and interesting at best, often
stupid or even evil at worst." =

        NOMADS RIDE AROUND ON CAMELS! They live in TENTS! =

They have done so for many centuries, thank you! "Middle =

men" at Bazars and such have, for centuries, sold what is
available at what prices they can get. Meteorites are just one
more commodety in such a context. PERIOD. =

        YOU SAY:
> Outside of shows, the meteorite market (not Twelker:^)) exists =

> mainly in cyberspace. Seems like it would be easy for someone =

> over there to tap into that market. =

        "EASY????" Many Americans still don't have a clue about email! =

These are countries more often than not without ELECTRICITY! =

(sure, in the larger cities, blah, blah, quack, quack - but GENERALLY)
I don't have a cell phone - you expect somone in Oman or Morocco
to be both internet savy AND interested in selling meteorites????
        YOU SAY:
> I am surprised they were asking market value at the shows in =

> Europe. Obviously they sell to dealers at below market
> value and could do better at a show selling somewhere =

> between dealer price and market value. =

        Do you have any IDEA what the "difference between dealer =

price and market value" IS? =

        - sure, on Lunar, SNCs, Howardite, etc. the dealer/consumer
price CAN BE substantial - but these "rare" specimens are RARE! =

They constitute a TINY percentage of the material involved. The
"mark up" on well over 95% of the material comming out of =

Africa is MINISCULE. A few cents a gram- and I mean a FEW, not
20 or 30, or even 10 - or 5, I mean a FEW.
         So, now that Africans have jumped through hoops of fire to =

get passports, paid exhorbitant fees for air fair and SHIPPING and =

any customs rigamarole and are paying unbelievable prices (relative =

to thier native economy) for everything from food to shelter to =

show fees, you want them to cut the price........ need I elaborate =

further?
        YOU SAY:
> To truely have long term economic improvement some =

> govermental cooperation and intervention needs to be =

> balanced with the individual gains of the finders. From =

> what has been said about bribes, this would take a complete =

> social overhaul. =

        The first part of the above paragraph is both niave AND
ethnocentric (see above definition) The last sentence ALSO
involves a total lack of awareness of how things REALLY work
in the US, itself. =

        Bribes? You REALLY don't know how the U.S. RUNS on Bribes? ! =

(I must admit they are usually labeled other than bribes - "campaign
controbutions" and "donations" to the police retirement funds, =

giving people in positions of power "fees" for "consultation" or =

writing books that never get realeased, or.......ETC. - certainly in
the NY & Chicago, everyone wholives there knows the police not =

only take bribes on a regular basis from bars, strip joints, etc, =

but a person is a fool not to have a few hundred dollars that will =

get him out of most things other than murder - and certainly
any traffic citation). It is understood, from restraunt health =

inspectors to fire safety clearance in apartment buildings, etc,
etc, etc. (Many who DON'T know this are heads of failed =

small businesses - because most "officials" will certainly never =

use the word "bribe" and you will hear countless "businessmen"
who attempted to start a business complain of how everything
is now over regulated to the point it is impossible to have a small
business. You think successful small businesses "magically" over
came the same obsticles? =

        That does not begin to address BIG business. How do you =

think the tobacco companies have managed to stay in business =

the last 30 years when every member of congress has known of =

the totally poisonous efects of tobacco? How do you think the =

major oil companies can destroy an entire ecosystem in Alaska =

and STILL not have paid $1 to one single company out of the =

countless fishing businesses who "won" law suits
against them in court? =

        I could go on the length of a BOOK just LISTING areas that =

involve bribes and "political" manueverings - from the local to =

the state to the fedral to the executive level.
        That is not what this list is for, so, I will simply say that any =

adult over 30 years of age in the US who still separates the =

terms Government, Big Business & Organized Crime is so out
of touch with reality as to deserve a "bless their hearts" nod
from those who have been awake through the process of =

growing up to know they differ only slightly - primarily in =

"style," terminology and function. The line is particularly thin =

between Big Business & Organized Crime - whereas, in politics =

the terminology differences create a slight illusion of greater =

separation. =

        YOU SAY:
>Much to understand with these nomads, we need one on =

>the list. =

        I am sure one will just hop right off his camel, spend years
getting a formal education (WHERE I do not know) learning English
and computer skills, somehow find the $ for the cost of all this, =

buy a computer & hook right up to the internet (I am sure it is a =

breeze over there - much easier than in a back water town in =

Idaho) and have a little chat with us. =

        Yes, that would be convenient - for us.
        YOU SAY:
> To sum up, I don't see the dealers as the saviors of the Sahara, =

> which is not far from some of the latest arguments. =

> Same goes for the hunters. =

        Clearly you miss the "flavor" of the "argument" wherein
each "side" is pointing fingers and calling names - nothing more, =

nothing less.
        YOU SAY
> To do this (be the "saviors of the Sahara")would require =

> teaching them to better help themselves, beyond the act of =

> collecting. =

        This comment is tranparently ethnocentric. Sounds like =

something an 18th or 19th century British aristocrat would say. =

        The entire concept of a "3rd world" is ethnocentric - we =

(the "modern world") contaminate their economic systems, =

then "see" the "answer" FOR THEM is to become MORE LIKE US! =

Just change eons of tradition, ways, language, kinship practices, =

values, religion, economic practices - just become more "like us." =

Yup, that's the ticket! =

                                        ---------------------
        AND FINALLY YOU SAY: =

> Seems to be the case in most third world ventures =

> "10% of the purchase of this macadamia nut crunch bar =

> goes to support tropical reforesation" The other 90% into =

> production, packaging, distribution, and the guy whose idea =

> it was. Finders Keepers, also a tricky subject.
        NOW we get to the real heart of the matter! The issue that
caused this to become of interest to this list! =

        You see, the person "who's idea it was" - involved A FEW =

individuals, mostly, if not exclusively from France. Meteorites
were ORIGINALLY, for several YEARS, purchased over there =

for UNDER 5c PER GRAM! They were then carefully analized =

and selectively submitted to be oficially analysed, typed and =

registered - then marketed to the collecting public - in most
cases well UNDER "market prices" for such material - all by
a few dealers from France. SOME of these dealers also DID DO
FIELD SEARCH for meteorites in Africa - at great cost, both =

financially and in terms of risk of human life - Alaine and
Louis Carion, particularly, brought new life to Libyan Desert =

Glass and found many meteorites, themselves. (they were
not the only ones). For the most part, however, the French,
for several years, had an "exclusive" and ALL material was =

either overtly stated to be found by them or implied to have
been found by them - and, even though their prices were far
below "traditional" prices for such rare material (Howardites,
Eucrites, Lunites, etc.) they were ASTRONOMICALLY higher =

than the pennies per gram being paid for them. (It must also
be noted that they were buying EVERYTHING meteoritic - so,
there was much that was very common, broken, highly =

weathered, etc. that never ever came to market at all. It is still
being held - it most certainly was not thrown away! It did, =

however, contribute to their "overhead" - but most certainly
not to the level that it "cost" them anywhere remotely close =

to hundreds of dollars per gram for a nice Howardite or =

R Chondrite or the like. =

        NOW, here come these stinking Americans! They start =

buying meteorites like mad - and start paying MORE for the
better materials, starting with anything that has reasonably
fresh fusion crust, then achondritic material, etc. and in a =

matter of a year or so the "market" in Africa has changed
DRAMATICALLY! =

        So, there, in the above few parigraphs, you have the =

REAL heart of the issue! =

        Again, Rob, this was NOT "aimed at" you! These are things
I have heard MANY on this list say - you just happened to put
a bunch of the all togeather. PLEASE forgive me for making
ANY of what I said sound as though it were directed at you,
personally. I do appologize for whatever degree I made it
 "sound" that way - it is not. =

        Sorry, I just could NOT sit on my hands any longer.
        Best wishes, Michael =


 =

--
=93Suppose you were an idiot... And suppose you were =
a member of Congress...But I repeat myself.=94
- Mark Twain
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Received on Sat 30 Jun 2001 02:02:04 PM PDT