[meteorite-list] It is ridiculous now.

From: David Freeman <dfreeman_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Thu Apr 22 10:31:27 2004
Message-ID: <403C1BA4.6080806_at_fascination.com>

Dear List,
This feller' Mr. Doug is a genious I feel. Very well put.
Dave With an F, a big proud F.

John K. Gwilliam wrote:

> Doug and List,
> I met Doug for the first time at the Tucson Show just a few weeks
> ago. He was one of the people on my "to meet" short list because I
> have been very impressed with his depth of vision and a superb ability
> to express it in type.
>
> This is the best post I've seen in the last several years dealing with
> the issue of Ebay and the selling of suspect meteorites. Over the
> years, there have been several attempts by well-meaning people to do
> something to curb the sales of non-meteoritic material as genuine
> meteorites. All of us know what the result has been: our in-boxes get
> filled with endless threads about so-and-so bad guy selling
> meteorwrongs on ebay. What have we accomplished in the past, say,
> four years? Not much. Don't get me wrong, I think it's an admirable
> goal to want to make the wrong things in this world right, but unless
> progress is being made and the end result matches the original goal,
> what is the point?
>
> Back in 1999, a former list member started the "Meteorite Sheriff
> Posse." He personally selected the members he wanted to be in the
> group and then galloped off on his cyber stallion to rid Ebay of
> fraudulent meteorite sellers. While there were some interesting
> moments with this group, the overall result was failure and a lot of
> wasted time.
>
> If the IMCA leadership think policing Ebay should be part of their
> mission, I suggest they take a good look at what Mexico Doug has to
> say. Personally, I think that unless a deceptive dealer is a member
> of the IMCA, no direct action should be taken. A lot of resources
> that could be applied in a positive and rewarding direction are being
> used up trying to fight the bad guys one at a time.
>
> Thank you Doug for getting us to take a different look at an old problem.
>
> Best,
> John Gwilliam
>
> At 11:40 PM 2/23/2004 -0500, MexicoDoug_at_aol.com wrote:
>
>> En un mensaje con fecha 02/23/2004 1:25:22 PM Mexico Standard Time,
>> magellon_at_earthlink.net escribe:
>>
>>> Unless you become a victim,
>>> there is not a whole lot you can do legally.
>>> And that IS sad.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree the situation is not very happy, though I have a different
>> path to suggest in accomplishing the goal. I want to say you
>> analysis was very convincing if the big hammer approach is to be
>> tried ... enough to tempt anyone. I was very impressed with the
>> resources available that you mentioned. But please also consider:
>> First, what is the goal?
>>
>> Ebay is a giant flea market, is it not? Or does the flea market
>> being on-line mean people have to be more ethical? I don't think the
>> mission of eBay is to get tied up in that sticky issue any more than
>> similar things like porn-proofing the on-line search engines at the
>> source. Similar messes would result in a dynamic situation. I have
>> never seen unofficial vigilante cops running around an asphalt and
>> paint flea market, and the IMCA really has no such jurisdiction.
>> Please don't interpret this as me cutting slack to nefarious
>> thieves. Nothing is further from my thoughts. I think it is just an
>> objective summary of the state of the world at the moment. So rather
>> than changing the world, perhaps we need to drop the Policeman of the
>> World ideas and review some other reasonable options that tend to get
>> us where we want to, efficiently. Some ideas on the table I'd advance:
>>
>> 1. Who's responsibility is it to beware? Ans: the buyer
>> 2. Does eBay permit a flea market policing authority with
>> sanctioning power? Ans: No.
>> 3. What is the IMCA to this? Ans: A special interest SELLER group.
>> 4. What is it to you if you aren't the victim? a) Fulfill a desire
>> to be a vigilante. or b) Increase your sales by giving people more
>> confidence to pay you for your stuff and getting rid of competitors
>> you can squeal on or c) both or d) Nothing.
>> 5. What is it to you if you are the victim? Ans: a) Theft; b) Happy
>> anyway ... no perceived problem.
>>
>> It would seem that this is only a crime when there is victim, with
>> the possible exception of advertising fraud as already pointed out -
>> though that is a rather overkill due to its complexity in preparing
>> the case, a difficult route to take for a flea market, unless you are
>> a victim, and a very mad one at that !! And it would also seem that
>> if IMCA were to consider combating fraud within its goals, the
>> resources should be paid for proportionally, just like the United
>> Nations type of animal it is, based on sales. Perhaps a three tier
>> contribution. But then again, perhaps not: Because not everyone in
>> IMCA feels the same about paying to nail other criminals with their $.
>>
>> I didn't check if IMCA has in its goals to combat fraud. I would
>> think, though, that IMCA is a positive bend, not a crime fighting
>> bend, and as such feels strongly about fraud but does not make it a
>> general focus for membership. Rather, IMCA I view as a positive
>> influence saying, with us you buy with confidence. So based on the
>> above reasoning, I would enter the idea that all IMCA members
>> interested in policing the eBay world start an anti-fraud squad (best
>> under IMCA, of course) where everyone has that one sole purpose. Now
>> the three tier funding works whether in $ or in hours...but how to
>> spend it efficiently? ...
>>
>> The real complaint seems to me to be in part that IMCA is not being
>> marketed as well as many wish it could. Well ... maybe it should
>> scrap that idea of being vigilantes and work on improving marketing
>> efforts. For example every time I make a search on Google for
>> meteorites up pops "I buy, sell and trade meteorites," by one
>> distinguished member who has his marketing act together. Why don't I
>> see the IMCA there, too. "We are a non-profit organization helping
>> buyers get authentic meteorites. Click for a free guide on-line
>> auction fraud and eBay offenders."
>>
>> How much could that cost? Less than the policing effort? I would
>> think so. And speaking of the policing effort, I wouldn't stop there
>> if I had nothing else to do. No inventing of clever ways to alert
>> bidders... A wrong plus another wrong doesn't always work well.
>> Rather, perhaps a little patience, and then follow-up to the buyers
>> who were truly robbed. Subject "International Meteorite Collectors
>> Association" Dear fellow meteorite enthusiast: We are the IMCA, an
>> organization, bla bla bla dedicated to authenticity with a special
>> group that polices on-line auction fraud. Several members routinely
>> peruse eBay auctions and bring fraud to attention when it is
>> suspected. While we recognize some buyers may not be concerned with
>> the authenticity of their recent meteorite purchase for their own
>> personal reasons, we direct this message to those who are concerned
>> with authenticity. First, IMCA agrees with the definition in ______
>> dictionary: A rock or iron originating from outer space that can be
>> proven to have fallen to earth as a meteor, after surviving passage
>> through the Earth's atmosphere. If this is what you intended to
>> purchase, we feel there is evidence that you may have been the victim
>> of fraud. We would like to refer you to our organization's web site
>> where we list all the recent suspected fraudulent ebay Sellers and a
>> description of the suspected theft of unsuspecting bidders as
>> reported by our individual members. (Link: IMCA eBay Gallery of
>> Rogue Sellers). If this concerns you and you become convinced that
>> it is in your interest not to pay for fraudulent specimens, we also
>> would invite you to allow us to assist you (Link: Steps in backing
>> out of an auction you have won when you discover after winning that
>> the material is fake) in not losing your money to this suspected
>> fraudulent meteorite, and to leave the corresponding feedback for the
>> Seller.
>> Note, that while members of the IMCA are frequently meteorite
>> sellers, the IMCA does not charge for this service to those
>> interested in making claims for material we suspect as fradulent. At
>> no time will we ask you for money, passwords, or to buy anything.
>> This is not Spam to sell meteorites. We offer this service as a
>> benefit to our members carrying the IMCA logo in their eBay auctions
>> to keep our small industry with a relatively limited pool of sellers
>> fraud free as possible, some of which participate on eBay, so that
>> trust may be built among buyers of meteorites and increase the
>> overall satisfaction in on-line meteorite purchases. Thank you for
>> your time and should you have any questions regarding on-line
>> meteorite fraud or rogues, please send them to IMCA_at_imca.org for a
>> prompt reply. This is the only message you will receive from the
>> IMCA regarding your transaction if you do not respond. You are not
>> on any mailing list and this is a single personal message from the
>> IMCA Anti-fraud squad, which suspects your recent purchase to be a
>> fake. Sincerely, IMCA (Link: anti-fraud squad membership, without
>> affiliations)
>>
>> Later, on the website, any and all cases cracked with IMCA help to
>> victims would be listed protecting the name of the victim but not the
>> perpetrator (who the victim can provide the name of).
>>
>> Hope this helps. Seems a bit more realistic if IMCA wants to get
>> involved (with website and ebay ID to be able to send emails to ebay
>> users), and no gray purchases of junk are required. Plus those that
>> don't want or need help ... well, who really cares ... they aren't
>> victims really anyway...
>>
>> Saludos
>> Doug
>
>
>
>
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Received on Tue 24 Feb 2004 10:51:00 PM PST