[meteorite-list] AD: METEORITE CLASSIFICATION SERVICE

From: Jason Utas <meteoritekid_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat Jul 15 22:45:16 2006
Message-ID: <93aaac890607151249t5f2e2cf4gc38c3051f3860d0a_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hello David, All,

Alrighty, down to business.

> > Well done.

>Thank you. I hope you got a smile out of it, but I'm sure not as funny
>as Martin Altmann.

Don't worry, I've yet to reply to his off-list reply, but I'll get to it
asap....well, now there's an on-list one...which one Martin?

>> You've missed my point entirely.

>No I believe I understand your point perfectly well, and I agree with
>your feelings that material must be saved for science rather than turned
>into Bessy Specks.

That was my philosophy on collecting. I've finished up with this issue (I
think) with Stan, so if you want to, go to my last message and read it
there.

>>
>> And way to be melodramatic.

>Whatever.

Well, fine, exaggerate what I say.

>> I don't care whether or not people have collections. It's my opinion
>> that if they want one, they should be able to do whatever they want
>> with it. But they should want to conserve such rare items and use
>> them for their only really useful purpose - to expand our knowledge
>> of the solar system.

>Agreed. (some do make great doorstops though)

Indeed...and some can even be used to weight down the lids of pickle barrels
if I remember correctly.

>>
>> I'm not saying that people should give up their collections.

>Of course not, only a few countries have this as their policy.

Well what are you worried about? From what I've been able to gather, this
won't have any effects on pricing, as dealers are selling whatever portion
they sell to the U of A at full price. Again, if the prices go up, it's the
dealers fault and not the university's.

>>
>> But they should be willing to allow dealers to sell a portion of
>> their finds to science, so that the might be studied more in-depth.
>> Without the scientific research behind all of this, they'd just be
>> useless bits of rock anyways.

>I just paid a visit to the Smithsonian collection. They have some
>fantastic large masses preserved. Bravo.

Indeed...fantastic collection.

>They have the financial power
>to make competitive offers for others, although I don't believe they
>acquire NWA material.

Well, to some degree - I'm not really sure about how much money they have
to spend on new meteorites, but I'm sure there's something there.

>Other institutions do, and the classifying
>institution gets at least 20 grams of everything. Most dealers would
>gladly contribute more if there was something of special interest of
>which more was needed; I know the Hupes mention their generous donations
>above and beyond quite often.

And in this case, if the U of A wants more to work with, they can buy it.
How many times am I going to have to say this? If the dealers want to jack
up prices after selling to the program, it will be no fault of the U of A.
It will be a decision resting solely on the dealers, because they will have
been paid in full for the material that they 'gave' to the U of A.

>>
>> And maybe when we all pass on, we could leave some statement in our
>> will that would allow the University of Arizona to either have the
>> first go at buying it, or just donate it to them outright. They do
>> no good sitting in your drawers or wherever you keep them. You might
>> as well give them to a place that can actually put them to use.
>
>I've given some thought to this issue, knowing how old I'm steadily
>becoming. I've consulted collector friends as well. It is my conclusion
>that the person or institution who is willing to pay the most money for
>a specimen, or the entire collection, is the entity who will care most
>for it in perpetuity. A donated specimen carries no monetary value and
>would not demand the degree of care and respect necessary for best
>scientific preservation.

True, though if you found an institution that truly curated meteorites well,
and that would appreciate such a donation, you might consider donating
it...I haven't looked into it, as I think I've got some time, but some
others might want to...

>>
>> David, you know what I mean - you're one of the few that actually has
>> a website where one can see descriptive pictures of meteorites -
>> you're an exception anyways. And surely you felt some reason to put
>> all of those pictures and that information up - it wasn't just for
>> your own enjoyment, was it? If you care at all about how unique and
>> special such items are, you'd just allow this to happen. It wouldn't
>> harm you, your pocketbook, or your collection at all. I've already
>> explained this.

>But you don't understand some of the repercussions Jason. I do
>understand Stan's point that big-dollar backing by a single institution
>could enable them to purchase entire masses before little ol' me gets a
>chance to add a small specimen to my collection. I think you haven't
>understood this point yet. Please address it.

Yeah, it could. It could raise prices if dealers allowed it to. And if
dealers are greedy, that's what'll happen. The possibility's there.
What's not possible is the assumption that they'll purchase large portions
of every new meteorite. You seem to fear this happening. This isn't the
aim of the institution at all.

Well, with this interest off of $10 mil, with a premium interest rate of 6%
(did some quick research there), they'd have enough dough to buy a lot, but
only as much as the dealers let them. I'll state it a third time. The
market would still be in the hands of the dealers, just as it is today.

>> If you wish to continue to ignore what I'm saying, go right ahead.
>> No one's going to stop you....but I do hope you get it eventually.

>I'm conversing with you aren't I? Not ignoring you. (I do need to go mow
>my lawn though) Let me ask you this. Do you think my systematic
>collection would be better off with me or with ASU? I'm absolutely
>serious that I would be willing to sell it in its entirety for a small
>portion of that $10 Million.

I don't know what you do to keep these things from deteriorating, keep 'em
secure, intact, etc, etc. And we're talking about the U of A here, not
ASU.

Regards,
Jason

>>
>> And since I've been writing this, Stan has written back again, so off
>> to that one...
>>
>> Regards, Jason
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/14/06, David Weir < dgweir_at_earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>Hello Stan and Jason,

>> Jason has eloquently convinced me that my virtually complete
>> systematic collection, which I have put together over the past 23
>> years, would be better utilized for science by my selling it to SWMC.
>> I presume that my collection will be better accessible to scientific
>> as well as public interests through SWMC rather than by its continued
>> exhibition on my meteoritestudies.com website - along with those
>> boring comments I keep writing. Therefore, I will take offers from
>> SWMC for its sale and safe-keeping, forever guarding it against
>> further destruction into tiny bits. Although the level of scientific
>> scrutiny that is undertaken today is on the nanometer scale, I agree
>> with Jason that these objects must be kept intact at all costs. I
>> will entertain offers from SWMC for my entire collection, and I will
>> go back to the study of plants. (serious offers only please.)
>>
>> Regards, David
>>
>>


On 7/15/06, David Weir <dgweir_at_earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Hello David, All,
> >
> > Well done.
>
> Thank you. I hope you got a smile out of it, but I'm sure not as funny
> as Martin Altmann.
>
> > You've missed my point entirely.
>
> No I believe I understand your point perfectly well, and I agree with
> your feelings that material must be saved for science rather than turned
> into Bessy Specks.
> >
> > And way to be melodramatic.
>
> Whatever.
> >
> > I don't care whether or not people have collections. It's my opinion
> > that if they want one, they should be able to do whatever they want
> > with it. But they should want to conserve such rare items and use
> > them for their only really useful purpose - to expand our knowledge
> > of the solar system.
>
> Agreed. (some do make great doorstops though)
> >
> > I'm not saying that people should give up their collections.
>
> Of course not, only a few countries have this as their policy.
> >
> > But they should be willing to allow dealers to sell a portion of
> > their finds to science, so that the might be studied more in-depth.
> > Without the scientific research behind all of this, they'd just be
> > useless bits of rock anyways.
>
> I just paid a visit to the Smithsonian collection. They have some
> fantastic large masses preserved. Bravo. They have the financial power
> to make competitive offers for others, although I don't believe they
> acquire NWA material. Other institutions do, and the classifying
> institution gets at least 20 grams of everything. Most dealers would
> gladly contribute more if there was something of special interest of
> which more was needed; I know the Hupes mention their generous donations
> above and beyond quite often.
> >
> > And maybe when we all pass on, we could leave some statement in our
> > will that would allow the University of Arizona to either have the
> > first go at buying it, or just donate it to them outright. They do
> > no good sitting in your drawers or wherever you keep them. You might
> > as well give them to a place that can actually put them to use.
>
> I've given some thought to this issue, knowing how old I'm steadily
> becoming. I've consulted collector friends as well. It is my conclusion
> that the person or institution who is willing to pay the most money for
> a specimen, or the entire collection, is the entity who will care most
> for it in perpetuity. A donated specimen carries no monetary value and
> would not demand the degree of care and respect necessary for best
> scientific preservation.
> >
> > David, you know what I mean - you're one of the few that actually has
> > a website where one can see descriptive pictures of meteorites -
> > you're an exception anyways. And surely you felt some reason to put
> > all of those pictures and that information up - it wasn't just for
> > your own enjoyment, was it? If you care at all about how unique and
> > special such items are, you'd just allow this to happen. It wouldn't
> > harm you, your pocketbook, or your collection at all. I've already
> > explained this.
>
> But you don't understand some of the repercussions Jason. I do
> understand Stan's point that big-dollar backing by a single institution
> could enable them to purchase entire masses before little ol' me gets a
> chance to add a small specimen to my collection. I think you haven't
> understood this point yet. Please address it.
> >
> > If you wish to continue to ignore what I'm saying, go right ahead.
> > No one's going to stop you....but I do hope you get it eventually.
>
> I'm conversing with you aren't I? Not ignoring you. (I do need to go mow
> my lawn though) Let me ask you this. Do you think my systematic
> collection would be better off with me or with ASU? I'm absolutely
> serious that I would be willing to sell it in its entirety for a small
> portion of that $10 Million.
> >
> > And since I've been writing this, Stan has written back again, so off
> > to that one...
> >
> > Regards, Jason
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/14/06, David Weir < dgweir_at_earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Stan and Jason,
> >
> > Jason has eloquently convinced me that my virtually complete
> > systematic collection, which I have put together over the past 23
> > years, would be better utilized for science by my selling it to SWMC.
> > I presume that my collection will be better accessible to scientific
> > as well as public interests through SWMC rather than by its continued
> > exhibition on my meteoritestudies.com website - along with those
> > boring comments I keep writing. Therefore, I will take offers from
> > SWMC for its sale and safe-keeping, forever guarding it against
> > further destruction into tiny bits. Although the level of scientific
> > scrutiny that is undertaken today is on the nanometer scale, I agree
> > with Jason that these objects must be kept intact at all costs. I
> > will entertain offers from SWMC for my entire collection, and I will
> > go back to the study of plants. (serious offers only please.)
> >
> > Regards, David
> >
> >
>
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