AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds -Part I

From: Martin Altmann <altmann_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Fri May 5 10:22:01 2006
Message-ID: <006101c6704f$3af1f2e0$4f41fea9_at_name86d88d87e2>

Hi Sterling,

I feared, that with my bad english, I would have to write an long reply,
let's try.
It is NOT NOT TRUE!
First of all, perhaps to clarify, I was speaking about the times roughly
beginning at 800 A.D., when here in Europe the broad mass of text-witnesses
starts to appear. And there you have simply the result, that all texts speak
from the Earth as a ball and that the late-antique "Fathers", where not
taught nor had any reception at all.

Please take your Cosmas Indicopleustes, which was taken by the philologists
of modern times as main witness for a flat Earth!
Here we have the problem, that Latin was the languague of traffic and
science and we simply have no Latin translation of Cosmas. The text you
mentioned was unknown in medieaval times. It was recovered by Bernard de
Montfaucon in the 18th century, who cared for the first translation from
Greek to Latin. And we have no single text-witness for Cosmas from the
mentioned period.
Nor can we find any remarkable reception of Firmianus Lactantius (ca. 300
A.D.) another flat-worldler. Of course there were some flat-Earthener among
the times of fathers,
but that image of the world was thought as an ideological supersession from
the pagan antique image of the world and had only a little influence to the
following centuries, and in those times from 800 on, practically all
cosmographic, encyclopaedic and even non-Latin simple texts,
have a round earth. And the institution of writing and education were the
church.

A second cause for that rumour of a flat-Earth, was the complete
misunderstanding in modern times of the Antipodes-issue, a discussion held
from Augustinus' times on over the whole mediaeval aerea. The terra
icognita.
And here wasn't the discussion about, whether possible antipodes on the
other side of a flat world would fall down as the modern philologist
speculated, but the issue was, whether they could be reached at all.
And Augustinus', a Father of immense authority for catholic church in
mediaeval times, argumentation was, that this could be not possible,
as, according to the world view of his times, the regions around the equator
couldn't be crossed, as they were thought to be to hot, because of the high
altitudes of Sun there. Thus possible antipodes couldn't be evangelized, as
it was the mandate given in the bible, consequently, sorry Norbert, there
can't be any antipodes. You find this fear of the equator regions still much
later, with the navigation along Africa's coast. Take "Cabo de Nao" (Cape
No), approx. the latitude of the Canary Isles or even more to the South Cape
Bojador (Cape of Fear), which was thought to be insurmountable.
Btw. Augustinus spoke from the shape of Earth as "moles globosa" (a
globe-shaped mass).
The first text, who wrongly told, that Augustinus has a flat disk, was
published by Johannes Dryander in 1563,
but the reason, why still today that legend of a mediaeval disk is still
alive, is that it was claimed in the very popular collection of legends of
Saints, the "Acta Sanctorum", which were published in, as far I know, 1643.
And this work was the water of the mills of the reconnaissance, who declared
the mediaeval time to a dark epoch.
 
The main reason for the flat-Earth-legend was the modern - with "modern" I
mean always 16th-19th century, as in 20th century history of science and
philology unanimously have no doubts anymore that in mediaeval times a
ball-shaped Earth was common sense -
the main reason was the misreading of the mediaeval Rota-maps, he
wheel-shaped world maps. Let's take for example the Map of Heresford (ca.
1300):
http://academics.vmi.edu/gen_ed/map.jpg
or the unfortunately in WWII burned Ebstorf map:
http://kuerzer.de/Ebstorf
(ca. 1300).
or those Beatus-maps from 8th. century on:
http://kuerzer.de/Osmo

Those maps never were thought to represent the entire and physical world,
they display a PART of the world, the known inhabited world, the diaspora.
They are a sector of the world.
Btw, if you put a circle on a globe with Jerusalem as center as those maps
have, those maps fits quite well.
To indicate, that it's a part of the globe, those maps are circular, not
because it was thought to be a disk. There exist also other maps for other
purposes, which are rectangular (for instance those Noachids`maps, who show
the distribution of the tribes originated from Noah's sons).
Please note the important detail on the maps, that outward all around is
painted water. This helps a lot to understand those maps, if one knows,
that it was then a highly discussed question, how much of the globe was
covered by water.
Only Francis Bacon, based on the 4th book Esdra (or Esra, 1st century),
took a ratio water:land of 1:6. Ptolemy (quoting Aristoteles) had sometimes
5:1 and 3:1 - his work was translated twice, once from Greek, once from
Arabic into Latin (from Gehard of Cremona, 1114-1187) and was accessible in
Europe and in use at the universities from the second half of the 12th.
century. The Islamic savants, who strongly influenced from 12th century on
the European science had larger ratios, probably because the knew the Indian
Ocean. They had a range from 4:1 (Abulfeda) up to 11:1 (Al Battani, called
Albagtenius, Geber).
Pierre d'Ailly quoted all this different ratios in his "Ymago Mundi" at the
end of 14th century and also Columbus had a copy of it.
Only the circumference of the globe was controversial.

That type of maps you will find added in the texts of your mentioned Isidor
de Sevilla (570-636), who indeed made no concrete assertions about the sape
of the Earth, but the part with the 5 climatic zones, I don't know...
And also Hrabanus Maurus (780-856) speaks not explicitely neither from a
flat nor from a round world. The added maps one could read as disk or as
globes. Perhaps those question wasn't so important?

Important is the tradition founding on Beda Venerabilis (7./8.century),
Because here we find not only the maps of the inhabited world, like with
Isidor, but also schematic pictures with the climatic zones, hence the
celestial circles (equator, arctic circles, tropical circles) depicted on
the Earth as definition of the climatic zones.
Of course those maps are flat, cause they are drawn in manuscripts, but with
the best sake, it makes no sense to deduct the celestial circles as lines on
a flat world and we have there on the one hand the maps with the inhabited
world with Jerusalem as center together with schematic maps with the view on
the equator (2 disks would be to stupid..).

I tried to find a pic on web from the map in the Beda-tradition by Lambert
of St.Otmer from the "liber floridus" from the bibliotheque municipale in
St.Otmer, Cod. 779 92v-93r, from ca. 1120 AD, can't find it at the moment,
It's not only more beautiful than that Lambert-map below,
no, there is also fat and large written in that map: GLOBUS TERRE.
Perhaps you'll find it.
Here the same map, but not so beautiful from a 12th century manuscript in
Wolfenbuettel.
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/217A.html

I forgot, that in medieavel maps East is always up.
There you can see in the left part, that, what we saw also on the other
maps: Europe, Asia, Africa in the middle you have the equator, with water,
and the hypothetical 4th continent to the right.

Here you have such another examples, depicting the globe seen from the
equator, according to Ambrosius Theodosius Macrobius "somnium Scipionis,
"Scipio's dream)(around 400 AD), an even older line of tradition,
who was an authority for such important cleric savants like Honorius of
Autun (+/- 1120AD), Albertus Magnus (1193-1280) or Thomas of Aquin
(1225-1274).
This map here was painted in 9th century:
http://www.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/~ttavk/weltkarten/800%20_macrobius.jpg

Here another one in the Macrobius-tradition:
http://kuerzer.de/Macrobius


Especially cruel it was, that those modern flat-Earthener-philologist, who
used this maps as proof of their hypothesis, had torn them out of their
contexts. Those maps weren't genuine inventions of those, who painted them,
but are based on the cosmographic and encyclopaedic works of that time, some
of them are even directly taken from manuscripts, where explicitely the
shape of the Earth was explained as to be round like a ball in the text
(also with the classic antique evidences given).

Sterling, I will write a second part, because now I need a cup of coffee and
to get a free brain, containing many sources telling the Earth to be a
globe, from the times before that little treaty of 1250, you mentioned. I
guess, you mean John of Hollywood's (Sacrobosco) Almagest excerpt "De
Sphaera"?
And some words about the enormous reception this treatise had.

Though it is so difficult, because I could write pages and pages with names
of mediaeval authors and sources, because all have a globe and not a disk
and in fact it is horribly difficult to find only a single one, who stated
in that period of time the Earth to be a flat disk.

I hope it's not boring,
but I'm so enerved by this popular myth being still reproduced.

Buckleboo
Martin the Mythbuster

PS: Sorry for my rough English.
 



-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Sterling K. Webb [mailto:sterling_k_webb_at_sbcglobal.net]
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Mai 2006 07:53
An: Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com; Martin Altmann; 'Rob McCafferty'
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds

Martin, List,

Martin wrote:
> ...recently I read in two independent articles that in mediaeval
> times people would have thought and church taught, that the
> Earth would be a flat disk, cause a round world would have
> been inconsistent with the bible. What an incredible rubbish!!
> (that prejudice about the disk firstly appeared in 17th century).

    Well, Martin, I hate to tell you, but it is NOT TRUE that it is a
modern prejudice that the Church taught that the world was flat.
The Early Father Lactantius wrote extensively against the rotundity
of the Earth from 302 AD to 323 AD and promoted a flat Earth
with a "box lid" of the heavens over it, the "Tabernacle Earth." By
the mid-Fourth century, the vast majority if the patristic fathers
were opposed to a spherical Earth, a long list: Cyril of Jerusalem,
Diodorus of Tarsus, Philoponus, St. Jerome... But the chief
promulgator of Flat-Earthism was Cosmas.
    Cosmas Indicopleustes ('India-voyager') of Alexandria was a
Greek sailor in the early 6th century who traveled to Ethiopia,
India and Sri Lanka. He then became a monk and before 550 AD
wrote a strange book, copiously illustrated. There can be few books
which have attracted more derision than the Christian Topography
of Cosmas Indicopleustes. It advances the idea that the world is flat,
and that the heavens form the shape of a box with a curved lid.
The author cites passages of scripture (inaccurately) to support his
thesis, and attempts to argue down the idea of a spherical earth by
stigmatizing it as 'pagan.' Cosmas was basically a poorly-educated
crank (internet-style) but through him Christianity was solidified into
supporting the idea of the flat-earth.
    In defense, let it be said that Christians and pagans did not as
such hold different views about the shape of the world. It was
a subject on which there was no certainty of knowledge for the
common man of the ancient world. It was "cutting edge," like
Relativity, and as little understood. And by the fourth century,
knowledge was decaying away at a rapid rate, without any more
help from Christians than from any of a host of causes.
    Cosmas' book is not without some value. There was trade
between the Roman Empire and India, but Cosmas was no doubt
the only writer who had actually made the journey. He traveled
the Red Sea coast, and as far as Taprobane (Ceylon, modern
Sri Lanka), and he describes some of what he saw, and even
drew pictures of strange animals in his autograph manuscript.
Away from his whacky theory, Cosmas is both interesting and
reliable. It was this content that made the work was immensely
popular in the Dark Ages (much as Mandeville's Travels were
in the Middle Ages), but it carried his cosmology along with it.
    You can read the complete text of "Christian Topography" at:
http://www.ccel.org/p/pearse/morefathers/cosmas_01_book1.htm
if you want laugh and groan.
    Isidore of Seville (600-635 AD), very erudite, discusses a variety
of theories without really deciding which is right, but most writers
of the seventh century stuck with a Flat-Earth model the Babylonians
had proven erroneous 3000 years before!
    Starting with the ninth century, Greek writing, preserved in Ireland,
begins to seep slowly back into the Christian West. Bacon and
Aquinas may have known about the Ptolemaic theory but they did
not write about it. But it is not until 1256 AD that the first short
and sketchy account of the Ptolemaic system appears in a
European language, just a few pages. And the full exposition of
a geocentric spherical Earth would wait until early- to mid-fifteenth
century for full publication.
    The importance of celestial navigation in Europe's expansion toward
gobbling up the planet (Hey! Somebody had to do it!) was the chief
impetus for pushing for greater accuracy and understanding that would
lead us to Copernicus, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Galileo, and all the rest
of that story...


Sterling K. Webb
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Altmann" <altmann_at_meteorite-martin.de>
To: <Meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com>; "'Rob McCafferty'"
<rob_mccafferty_at_yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2006 7:26 PM
Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds


In fact without the church, we really would live in a dark age nowadays.
Smth which is always forgotten, as the discipline of History of Science is
mainly philology, a branch which since decades isn't directly en vogue.
For a period of about 800 years the church was the only institution
collecting knowledge, doing science and educating students.
And nowadays we wouldn't for sure live in such a technically and
scientifically developed (socially I'm not so sure) world,
if there wasn't done the enormous transfer of knowledge by the clerics in
mediaeval times of the classical sciences, which the Islamic scientist
rescued and enlarged. Already before 1000 A.D. the first Arabian texts (btw.
Astronomical treaties) were translated to Latin by monks, take as an example
the manual for using the planispheric astrolabe by Gerbert d'Aurillac (950 -
1003), the later pope Sylvester II. and in the main stream later in 13.th
century it was of course also the church, who cared for translating and
spread the scientific literature from islamic occupied Spain, mainly with
the help of Mozarabs and bilingual jewish savants.
Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler weren't isolated ingenious solitaires,
they founded on a tradition and a 600 years lasting history of ideas,
collected and taught by the scholars of the church.
Without church no antique knowledge, no renaissance, no reconnaissance, no
modern science.
It is astonishing to me, how few is taught today about those for the
development of the occident most important period in history on
universities. For astronomers & physicists science starts with Newton, as
science would fall suddenly like an apple from a tree and the philologists,
who could read the texts, rather like to occupy with novels about knights
and stuff,
and the normal consumers see on cinema Giordano burning, a pissed-off
Gallilei sitting in his villa, or think, that Columbus' achievement beside
of the enormous size of his nose was, that he didn't fell off from the disk
or are lost in the mists of Avalon.
Imagine, recently I read in two independent articles in the largest German
astronomy (one was from a Prof. of physics) magazine, that in mediaeval
times people would have thought and church taught, that the Earth would be a
flat disk, cause a round world would have been inconsistent with the bible.
What an incredible rubbish!!
(that prejudice about the disk firstly appeared in 17th century).

Buckleboo
Martin







-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-bounces_at_meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Rob
McCafferty
Gesendet: Freitag, 5. Mai 2006 00:23
An: britishandirishmeteoritesociety_at_yahoogroups.com;
meteorite-list_at_meteoritecentral.com
Betreff: [meteorite-list] RE: Doing the rounds

Don't worry about getting excommunicated. They can't
do that unless you're already a member. Though maybe
you are.

Incidentally, the Vatican's position has softened
tremendously in the last few years.

BBC Radio Scotland had the Vatican's Meteorite
representative on at about 830am this morning. I
didn't even know they had one of the worlds largest
meteorite collections let alone a representative to
talk about it.

I missed a lot of it because out on this island, the
reception isn't great and it's even worse since I tore
the ariel off the roof putting my car in a ditch a
couple of months back. What I did pick up was that
they agree with the scientists over the age of the
Earth and theologically speaking, they have no problem
with any of the theories over the creation of the
universe or even the concept of life on other planets.

Galileo has had 10 years to recover from the burns of
hell now so I'm sure he feels pretty vindicated. House
arrest isn't so bad, not if you've got a telescope, a
microscope, some meteorites and the internet so he
must have enjoyed it about 25% by my maths.

As a scientist who is a Christian, a lot of people as
me about the church changing it's stance over Galileo.
I tend to be rather glib in my response.
The wittiest repost is along the lines of,

"He got out of Hell on appeal which is no surprise
because guess where all the lawyers are"

It's a larf innit?

Rob McC

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Received on Fri 05 May 2006 10:21:39 AM PDT