[meteorite-list] Samples or how to cut a meteorite

From: Jeff Kuyken <info_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 16:41:09 +1100
Message-ID: <006a01c849dd$6ba11ce0$4001a8c0_at_mandin4f89ypwu>

Hi Ingo & all,

Everyone has raised some very good and interesting points. I for one cannot
stand to see a beautiful oriented meteorite cut or a window ground. But I
also understand that occasionally there are exceptions. And I mean
OCCASSIONALLY! ;-)

I have a complete slice of NWA 2705 which was a small 30g oriented heat
shield. BUT... it's also one of the freshest NWA Ureilites. Now there are
plenty of heat sheild meteorites around this ~30g size but I believe if you
actually stop to think about it, there was far more for science to gain from
such a fresh Ureilite to warrant its slicing.

And if you look at the slices, you are able to see the stones oriented
outline anyway. So everyone wins.

http://www.meteorites.com.au/features/nwa2705.html

Cheers,

Jeff


----- Original Message -----
From: Ingo Herkstroeter
To: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 8:59 PM
Subject: [meteorite-list] Samples or how to cut a meteorite


Listees,

Yes to cut a wonderful oriented meteorite hurts. But also the interior
of such a space rock is important: to cut a very nice full slice into
some part slices will destroy a nice collection piece also, especially
if the part slices don't show all features, which were represented by
the full slice. Only a few part slices of a meteorite can show every
better nearly every feature.
Isn't a full slice of a rare meteorite worth the same as a nice heat
shield? For me it is! Isn't a full slice much rarer than all part slices
of the same fall/find and so a very special collection piece? For me it
is!

Just my two cents...

Ingo

>> Don,
>> You touched a nerve there. I hate it when I see an incredible
oriented
>> meteorite and then realize that it has been cut or ground for a
window.
>> I ve seen a couple recently that I would love to have in my
collection
>> and was willing to pay top dollar until I seen the cut ( even on the
>> backside ) and then the value dropped by 80 % in my eyes.
>> All dealers should really know what they are doing before they ruin
an
>> oriented meteorite.
>>
>> Bob
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Rawlings" <psc2410xi at yahoo.com>
>> To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 8:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>>
>>
>>> Doug and listees:
>>>
>>> I find it amazing that some dealers are only too
>>> willing to destroy the beauty of an oriented meteorite
>>> which is obviously a common type to get it classified
>>> and then refuse to get a rare meteorite classified
>>> because they think it "looks like" something someone
>>> else has.
>>>
>>> How is the collector, or his/her heirs, going to sell
>>> that rare meteorite that was never classified? It may
>>> seem like a bargain at the time to buy a field
>>> classified meteorite but there will come a time when
>>> it will most likely be considered worthless in the
>>> secondary market.
>>>
>>> Your advise is certainly sound.
>>>
>>> Don
>>>
>>> --- mexicodoug <mexicodoug at aol.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>
>>>> OK, I guess the first thing I assumed (and possibly
>>>> Mike did, too) was since
>>>> you called it a fall it was like Gao-Guenie: a
>>>> witnessed fall.
>>>>
>>>> But since you are apparently discussing an
>>>> unwitnessed fall from a hot
>>>> desert a.k.a. for us, dense collecting area (don't
>>>> know where else to get
>>>> all those Mars rocks), the best thing to do is to
>>>> plot the strewn field. In
>>>> the contemporary world that seems so difficult since
>>>> we can't even get
>>>> location information for one stone that has already
>>>> been through maybe
>>>> several hands.
>>>>
>>>> So I only see two options or combinations between
>>>> them:
>>>>
>>>> 1) Don't buy anything that is not documented.
>>>> Discourage others supporting
>>>> this.
>>>> 2) Buy everything under an agreement of trust from a
>>>> reputable seller and
>>>> submit the batch to a scientist and let him/her
>>>> minimize the guesswork and
>>>> possibly minor tests if doubts come up. Or in a
>>>> positive light, to convince
>>>> the scientist to say the batch is the same material
>>>> or cull out what is not
>>>> to arrive at the TKW.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to by Mars without any formal
>>>> classification, in the form of
>>>> many pebbles, there is no solution except 2),
>>>> whether you go it alone or
>>>> spread the risk with partners. Because you would
>>>> now be representing a rock
>>>> that has been subjectively field "classified".
>>>> While some people can live
>>>> with this, others can't. If you can at least get
>>>> locational information for
>>>> your specimens, you don't have to give the full
>>>> 20/20 - or anything for that
>>>> matter if enough to meet the combined 20/20 is in
>>>> curation as vouchers for
>>>> the group after the naming of your material - if a
>>>> scientist agrees to
>>>> classify and pair it to an existing classification.
>>>> This is the motivation
>>>> of the newer guidelines.
>>>>
>>>> Some people get mad about subjective classification,
>>>> because they broke the
>>>> ground on the sample and "invested", while others
>>>> are pissed that it is
>>>> obvious and common sense dictates the material is
>>>> what it is (arguments
>>>> like, bought from the same trader, got from the same
>>>> nomad, found together):
>>>> with no further support except subjective judgements
>>>> perceived as strong and
>>>> well founded.
>>>>
>>>> This latter may be true, but that still doesn't
>>>> remove the reality. Only if
>>>> the specimens fit together can this be foolproof.
>>>> Even an expert meteorite
>>>> hunter scientist can find or purchase a handful of
>>>> meteorites in the field
>>>> from a known fall and every once in a while a
>>>> terrestrial rock can sneak in
>>>> that has you fooled like a baby. Let me say it has
>>>> happened to me, and it
>>>> is a very frustrating and humbling experience. Some
>>>> time I'll tell the
>>>> story of a meteorwrong that saw me coming it was a
>>>> remarkable fraud that
>>>> would surprise anyone - the best scientists, at
>>>> their first glance,
>>>> included.
>>>>
>>>> So, the reality is also that unless each rock is
>>>> carefully studied, nothing
>>>> can avoid ocassional duds getting mixed in. Not to
>>>> mention incorrect
>>>> pairing of similr meteorites. Luckily in the sandy
>>>> desert this isn't as
>>>> great a problem as areas with varieties of rocks.
>>>>
>>>> How Unsettling, How Disagreeable to the innocent
>>>> collector and enthusiast,
>>>> scientist alike- but true. This is rthe dirty
>>>> laundry of meteorite
>>>> collecting. Hopefully someone has a better
>>>> suggestion, but I wouldn't hold
>>>> my breath unless I were an alchemist capable of
>>>> ethically transmuting
>>>> batches of meteorites ;-) There is no free lunch...
>>>> and no one can make
>>>> promises for something that hasn't been done. (Or
>>>> can they?)
>>>>
>>>> This whole thing gets sticky, when, you buy
>>>> meteorites from the literally
>>>> same batch that another person has already
>>>> classified. Sure: you may have
>>>> the same material, but then again, just because the
>>>> original buyer may not
>>>> have demanded 100% error proffing during the
>>>> classification and is selling
>>>> some stones under the classification he got, doesn't
>>>> make yours any more
>>>> paired to the ones that were used for the typing
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes, Doug
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
>>>> To: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>;
>>>> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:47 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Doug,
>>>> >
>>>> > This is what I'm thinking.
>>>> >
>>>> > Lets say I bought 50 Mars stones and the biggest
>>>> was only 8 grams, now
>>>> > what?
>>>> >
>>>> > I'm thinking what do I do now Doug?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Mike Farmer brings up a good point tens of
>>>> thousands of Gao stones, and
>>>> > why
>>>> > dont cut them or classify all of them! Same with
>>>> Canyon Diablo.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Tim
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "mexicodoug" <mexicodoug at aol.com>
>>>> > To: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:16 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Tim,
>>>> > I give up, what are you thinking - to sell them
>>>> unclassified except for a
>>>> > 2
>>>> > gram stone and then give a scientist 0.4 grams in
>>>> exchange for classifying
>>>> > the entire fall? Naughty naughty
>>>> > Doug
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
>>>> > To: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>;
>>>> "Andreas Gren"
>>>> > <info at meteoritenhaus.de>; "'Peter A Shugar'"
>>>> <pshugar at clearwire.net>
>>>> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 12:09 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > What if you had 20 stones all around 2 to10 grams
>>>> each all from the same
>>>> > fall?
>>>> >
>>>> > Tim
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Timothy Heitz" <midwest at meteorman.org>
>>>> > To: "Andreas Gren" <info at meteoritenhaus.de>;
>>>> "'Peter A Shugar'"
>>>> > <pshugar at clearwire.net>
>>>> > Cc: <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>>>> > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2007 11:55 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Samples
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>> === message truncated ===
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Received on Sat 29 Dec 2007 12:41:09 AM PST