[meteorite-list] Something is rotten on the web, on eBay, and with a certain seller.... & they try to sell fake lunars in the past

From: MikeG <meteoritemike_at_meteoritecentral.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2012 13:37:39 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKBPJW87QebAaeNn9kaEekg18DWjeW_H23jMgg9-Xb4kYTvo=A_at_mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bob and List,

I think your point is true for all dealers. If asked, a dealer should
provide provenance information, regardless of whether they are an IMCA
member or not.

I can only speak for myself here - I give out provenance information
if asked. However, I do not plaster it all over my website as a
matter of policy. Why? Not for the most-commonly cited reason. Some
dealers will say, I don't trumpet my sources because I am afraid
potential buyers will cut me out of the loop and buy directly from my
source. In my case, I am not worried about that. Many of my buyers
come to me because they can spend $5 and get a rare micro. Chances
are, if they could afford a larger specimen from somewhere else, they
wouldn't be shopping on my website.

I guard my sources because of meteorite politics - plain and simple.
Some of my sources don't like each other. Some of my sources have
sources who don't like me. To prevent friction between sources, I
tend to keep quiet about where I get certain material. This makes
everything work more smoothly. It's a shame, but that is one of the
dirty sides of meteorite dealing - politics. There is a lot of drama,
back-stabbing, and character assassination that goes on within the
meteorite dealer world. And I don't want one of my sources getting
into trouble/drama because somebody else who doesn't like me finds out
about where I get a given meteorite. A buyer or potential buyer has a
right to provenance information - John Q. Public who has no intention
of buying does not.

Shawn Alan provided extensive provenance information on his sources
via this List in the past. I am satisfied with what he provided.
That said, I would not have done what he did. I would have said "Are
you buying something? No? Then none of your beeswax where I get my
material from." If that scares off a few potential buyers, so be it.
That's how I roll.

Best regards,

MikeG

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On 12/8/12, Bob Loeffler <bobl at peaktopeak.com> wrote:
> HI all,
>
> I think that anyone who asks an IMCA dealer for provenance of a specimen
> should expect to get it.  IMCA member dealers should be held to a higher
> authority if they want to be respected as IMCA members.  I would think that
> this is part of membership, but I could be wrong (since I'm not a member).
> If IMCA member dealers don't give out provenance when asked for it, this
> could be considered deception... which looks bad on them and the IMCA.  Or
> maybe I'm missing out on what the IMCA is about.  This is what the first
> two
> sentences on the IMCA home page says:
>
> "The International Meteorite Collectors Association (IMCA Inc.) has one
> primary purpose: helping Meteorite Collectors in their search for Authentic
> Meteorites for their collections and assisting others in helping to learn
> more about meteorites. Whether they are new to the Meteorite World or very
> knowledgeable, we want all Collectors to buy/trade with confidence from our
> Members, knowing that every item will be exactly what it is represented to
> be."
>
> It seems pretty obvious to me.  How can we, as buyers, buy WITH CONFIDENCE
> when the seller doesn't provide information when requested?  If there are
> "trade secrets" (e.g. "Exactly where was the specimen found?" when the
> finder hasn't disclosed that info), then I understand why a dealer wouldn't
> disclose that info.  But provenance should not be considered a trade
> secret.
> I'm not trying to single out Shawn. I've never had any dealings with him
> and
> I'm sure he is a good person, so I am just saying all of this "in general"
> for all of the meteorite community.  If you look at Anne Black's website
> (http://www.impactika.com/MetList.htm), you will see that she mentions the
> provenance for about 95% of her stock.
>
> For those who are worried that a potential buyer will go over a dealer's
> head directly to the source, the source person has probably not dealt with
> the potential buyer (otherwise they would already be in discussions), and
> the source person will not want to have to deal with a new person because
> there is a lot of risk when starting up a business rapport with a new
> buyer.
>
> BTW, I don't know Bill and have never dealt with him either, so I'm not
> taking his side because of anything personal.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth...
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob L
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com
> [mailto:meteorite-list-bounces at meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of bill kies
> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 11:06 PM
> To: photophlow at yahoo.com
> Cc: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Something is rotten on the web, on eBay, and
> with a certain seller.... & they try to sell fake lunars in the past
>
>
> Shawn,
>
> You are a member of the IMCA. I shouldn't have to do homework when I buy
> from you. When I ask for provenance in advance you should cheerfully
> provide
> it. I never questioned the authenticity of your material. I only asked for
> assurance prior to making a bid.
>
> Is there really anyone that's going to try and undermine you at the source?
> Maybe, but I'm not one to pulverize micro's and I knew of your sources
> before you even considered meteorite collecting. I'll look up our private
> discussion on ebay if it's still there and let you decide who initiated
> rudeness. I believe I have it in a file somewhere.
>
> Seasoned Gratings,
> Bill
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 21:36:41 -0800
>> From: photophlow at yahoo.com
>> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Something is rotten on the web, on eBay,
>> and
> with a certain seller.... & they try to sell fake lunars in the past
>> To: parkforestmet at hotmail.com
>> CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>>
>> Bill if you did your homework you would see I posted my provinces in the
> past on the LIST, but wait that would matter cause you have no intensions
> of
> buying from me. Lastly, if I was rude to you on eBay, it was because you
> were rude to me first. You have a great night Bill and happy holidays to
> you
> Bill :)
>>
>> Shawn Alan
>> IMCA 1633
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: bill kies <parkforestmet at hotmail.com>
>> To: photophlow at yahoo.com
>> Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 8:49 PM
>> Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Something is rotten on the web, on eBay,
>> and
> with a certain seller.... & they try to sell fake lunars in the past
>>
>>
>> 1633,
>>
>> I don't recollect ever ganging up against you with anyone here or
> elsewhere. I simply asked for provenance concerning one of your ebay
> offerings and you were as rude through ebay, without knowing me there, as
> you are without knowing me here.
>>
>> I don't expect you to explain yourself. I cringe at the thought. I only
> asked that you explain the origins of your crumbs before I bid. And by the
> way, I doubt dropping names will help you join "the best in the bizzness".
>>
>> Just Plain Bill
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>> > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2012 20:22:05 -0800
>> > From: photophlow at yahoo.com
>> > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Something is rotten on the web, on eBay,
> and with a certain seller.... & they try to sell fake lunars in the past
>> > To: parkforestmet at hotmail.com
>> > CC: meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com
>> >
>> > Billy Billy Billy Billllllllllllllllllllllll
>> >
>> > Your too much. your going to do this again..... Its funny, not to long
> ago you did this with some other member on the List and tried to gang up on
> me. Bill, you know this and I know this, you have never bought a meteorite
> from me and you will never will. I have been contacted by people in the
> past
> and the only reason why they want to know where I got the meteorite from,
> is
> so they can go to that source and never buy from me. Any WHOS, I buy from
> the best, ask Anne, Blain, Matt Morgan, Rob Elliot, EV, Mr Blood to name a
> few :) and I have done trades with the best in the bizzness. I do not need
> to explain myself to you BILL and I have already explained many times where
> I get my meteorites from on the List.
>> >
>> > Shawn Alan
>> > IMCA 1633
>> > eBay store
>> > http://www.ebay.com/sch/imca1633nyc/m.html
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: bill kies <parkforestmet at hotmail.com>
>> > To: photophlow at yahoo.com
>> > Cc: "meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com"
> <meteorite-list at meteoritecentral.com>
>> > Sent: Friday, December 7, 2012 7:57 PM
>> > Subject: RE: [meteorite-list] Something is rotten on the web, on eBay,
> and with a certain seller.... & they try to sell fake lunars in the past
>> >
>> >
>> > Shawn,
>> >
>> > Thanks for the clarification. I feel safe now. On another note, I'd
>> > like
> to know why you refuse provenance until after your sales. I'd like to know
> the source before I bid. Not too much to ask I think. You explained that
> prospective buyers might try to circumvent you if they know your source but
> I don't think that applies to some of your micro offerings as they are so
> incredibly rare. Please explain further.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Bill
>> >
>
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Received on Sat 08 Dec 2012 01:37:39 PM PST